Update on PC12 inflight breakup in FL

Ouch. Very unpleasant reading. There was a similar event in the UK nearly a year ago where an owner with his wife stalled his Mustang and recovered, but with structural damage to write off the aircraft. It is still under investigation but sounds exactly like this.

Serious usual attitude recovery training really should be mandatory for all commercial pilots (I love that the UK Military call them unexpected attitudes).
 
Groundpounder said:
The PC-12 autopilot will kick off in moderate turbulence, especially if there is something out of rig. But, while the report makes no mention of the stick shaker, if the airplane was in pusher ice mode, he'd have gotten the shaker at 109 knots, which is what the report states as the speed at which the a/p kicked off. The shaker will disengage the autopilot.
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Shaker at 109 knots or the AoA donut centers at 109 knots in pusher ice mode? Residual Ice approach in the /45 (Series 9 and 10) minimum speed is 108 with maximum 15 degrees flap.
 
gotWXdagain said:
Shaker at 109 knots or the AoA donut centers at 109 knots in pusher ice mode? Residual Ice approach in the /45 (Series 9 and 10) minimum speed is 108 with maximum 15 degrees flap.
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Not really sure, but I'd imagine you'd have the shaker at 109 knots when you are clean and heavy.
 
z987k said:

If that's not a nice incipient spin, I don't know what is.
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Those aren't spins those are stalls with the pusher deactivated- the airplane torque rolls around the engine during the stall - just look at the test pilots hands during that event.

I don't know if there's a video of a PC-12 spin out there, but that's just what pilatus calls a "natural" stall. The "stall" later in the video is with the pusher working properly.
 
dustoff17 said:
That was me, I hadn't seen the NTSP report yet.

This is sad that such an inexperienced person flies with passengers.
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mojo6911 said:
Ego
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A private pilot with as low as 40 hrs total can carry passengers. I don't think it has to do with ego. You never took any family member up when you were low time?

I think this just reiterates the fact that we need to mandate spin recovery and more emphasis on unusual attitude recovery in training, and especially for complex aircraft certified for single-pilot operation.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
A private pilot with as low as 40 hrs total can carry passengers. I don't think it has to do with ego. You never took any family member up when you were low time?

I think this just reiterates the fact that we need to mandate spin recovery and more emphasis on unusual attitude recovery in training, and especially for complex aircraft certified for single-pilot operation.
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...and stick and rudder skills.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
A private pilot with as low as 40 hrs total can carry passengers. I don't think it has to do with ego. You never took any family member up when you were low time?

I think this just reiterates the fact that we need to mandate spin recovery and more emphasis on unusual attitude recovery in training, and especially for complex aircraft certified for single-pilot operation.
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There is a big difference between being a fresh private pilot and taking your family up to do a touch and go in a 172, and this:

Before purchasing the airplane about 5 weeks earlier, the pilot had not logged any time as pilot-in-command in a turbopropeller-equipped airplane and had not logged any actual instrument flight time in the previous 7 years 4 months. Additionally, his last logged simulated instrument before he purchased the airplane occurred 4 years 7 months earlier. Subsequent to the airplane purchase, he attended ground and simulator-based training that included extra flight sessions in the accident airplane, likely due to his inexperience. The training culminated with the pilot receiving his instrument proficiency check, flight review, and high-altitude endorsements; after the training, he subsequently logged about 14 hours as pilot-in-command of the accident airplane. Although the pilot likely met the minimum qualification standards to act as pilot-in-command by federal aviation regulations, his lack of experience in the make and model airplane was evidenced by the fact that he did not maintain control of the airplane after the autopilot disengaged.
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Cherokee_Cruiser said:
A private pilot with as low as 40 hrs total can carry passengers. I don't think it has to do with ego. You never took any family member up when you were low time?

I think this just reiterates the fact that we need to mandate spin recovery and more emphasis on unusual attitude recovery in training, and especially for complex aircraft certified for single-pilot operation.
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No
The point I was trying to make is less about hours and more about experience and capability. This guy exceeded both and killed others in the process.
 
Before purchasing the airplane about 5 weeks earlier, the pilot had not logged any time as pilot-in-command in a turbopropeller-equipped airplane and had not logged any actual instrument flight time in the previous 7 years 4 months. Additionally, his last logged simulated instrument before he purchased the airplane occurred 4 years 7 months earlier. Subsequent to the airplane purchase, he attended ground and simulator-based training that included extra flight sessions in the accident airplane, likely due to his inexperience. The training culminated with the pilot receiving his instrument proficiency check, flight review, and high-altitude endorsements; after the training, he subsequently logged about 14 hours as pilot-in-command of the accident airplane. Although the pilot likely met the minimum qualification standards to act as pilot-in-command by federal aviation regulations, his lack of experience in the make and model airplane was evidenced by the fact that he did not maintain control of the airplane after the autopilot disengaged.
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Well, no time in a turbopropeller plane is probably because he flew small GA aircraft before the PC12. The actual instrument time and simulated time before the purchase does sound out of date, but after the purchase, he went through the entire sim program, instrument proficiency check, flight review, and the appropriate PC12 endorsements. 14 hrs as PIC is low indeed, but what exactly led to the AP disconnect, and what were his immediate actions afterwards?

I normally do not make comments like that about pilots, but his passengers paid for his incredible stupidity.
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Those passengers were his wife and 4 kids. I doubt he took off that day thinking he was going to kill them or that he was being stupid.
 
The airplane then turned right while on autopilot in instrument meteorological conditions (IMC) at FL251; about 4 seconds into the turn, with the airplane indicating about 109 knots indicated airspeed and in a right bank of less than 25 degrees, the autopilot disconnected for undetermined reasons.
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At that flight level, is 109 kts a normal speed in a turn while on AP for the PC12?

The pilot allowed the bank angle to increase, and about 13 seconds after the autopilot disconnected, and with the airplane descending in a right bank of about 50 degrees, the pilot began a test of the autopilot system, which subsequently passed.
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Without being there we won't know, but could it be he didn't realize the AP was off until 13 seconds later, and only then pre-occupy himself with trying to fix it? I'm sure the plane has a chime of some sort for AP disconnect and/or a central warning system message but those could have been missed.

I'm glancing through the report, and am trying to find out if the power of the aircraft was pulled back while the plane was in a dive before attempting to use elevators? Was there any evidence of trying to power back?

An abrupt pull back well above maneuvering speed would have done them in, and it's a very sad accident. Perhaps powering back and then very light input may have been enough to get out of the dive (along with lowering the gear).
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Well, no time in a turbopropeller plane is probably because he flew small GA aircraft before the PC12. The actual instrument time and simulated time before the purchase does sound out of date, but after the purchase, he went through the entire sim program, instrument proficiency check, flight review, and the appropriate PC12 endorsements. 14 hrs as PIC is low indeed, but what exactly led to the AP disconnect, and what were his immediate actions afterwards?
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The report states that his immediate action was to test the autopilot all the while the plane kept turning right and diving. Seems to me he was heads down worried about the autopilot without putting it together that nothing was actually flying. Shows me that he had no confidence in his abilities without the automation.

Autopilots kick off a lot for a variety of reasons and, except for his obvious total dependence on it in this case, it shutting off is a non-issue to me.

Cherokee_Cruiser said:
Those passengers were his wife and 4 kids. I doubt he took off that day thinking he was going to kill them or that he was being stupid.
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A passenger is a passenger, makes no difference the relationship. Sometimes not realizing that you're being stupid (or in way over your head) is, in fact, stupid.
 
Cherokee_Cruiser said:
14 hrs as PIC is low indeed, but what exactly led to the AP disconnect, and what were his immediate actions afterwards?
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Used to have the autopilot kick off routinely going into SDL because of the summer bumps. Seems any good up or down draft would do it.

Yes there is a chime and it's pretty obvious.
 
that is wayyy too much plane for somebody with practically no instrument experience in forever

Good grief terrible tragedy for those families; totally avoidable.
 
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