Update on PC12 inflight breakup in FL

[Baronpilot244]

Lack of flying experience in IFR conditions and a simple AP disconnect seems to be what got him, such a shame. Trouble with aviation is you get the test first and the lesson after - if you survive the test in the first place....

Bp244

 

[chrisreedrules]

My thoughts echo some of the other posts above... I think he was figuring on relying solely on the aircraft's automation to see his family and him safely through the flight. Kind of a, "I don't have to be a very experienced pilot to fly this, it has an advanced autopilot" train of thought. Well it seems perhaps he didn't fully understand the automation on board and he certainly didn't have any intention of actually flying the airplane. This should be read by every rich guy who doesn't fly either professionally or passionately and wants to own/fly a complex airplane themselves. Be proficient, be quick... lives depend on it. Unfortunately in this case the lives were those of his wife and young family. RIP

 

[Mark815]

I read through the NTSB report - my CFII mentioned that I should read it last night when we were talking about IMC flight after a sim lesson.

Do A/Ps just disengage on their own? The report doesn't say that for obvious reasons, but the fact that he tested it immediately after makes me wonder if he tested it because he didn't like/believe what it was doing or....something?

The lesson I'm taking away at the moment is reinforcement of the primary rule: fly the airplane. No matter what. Fly the airplane.

I've had the AP kick off many times on me in the PC12 while in cruise for zero reason. 2hrs into a flight, at FL250, mid conversation with the F\O and "BEEEEEEEEEEEEP". I can't for the life of me figure out why the heck he would run a test, other than complete lack of knowledge and experience.

Well, no time in a turbopropeller plane is probably because he flew small GA aircraft before the PC12. The actual instrument time and simulated time before the purchase does sound out of date, but after the purchase, he went through the entire sim program, instrument proficiency check, flight review, and the appropriate PC12 endorsements. 14 hrs as PIC is low indeed, but what exactly led to the AP disconnect, and what were his immediate actions afterwards?

Going through a ground program and getting some endorsements doesn't mean a whole lot. Legally current on paper doesn't make one competent in the airplane. I instructed plenty of guys who were IFR legal (current) yet couldn't even keep it straight on a localizer, let alone follow the glideslope down.

The PC12 is an easy plane to fly, but that doesn't mean you can just hop into one with basic training and expect to master it. When you can afford a $4 million airplane, it's not much to pay a guy a few hundred bucks per day to sit in the right seat to baby sit you, especially with your family on board.

At that flight level, is 109 kts a normal speed in a turn while on AP for the PC12?



Without being there we won't know, but could it be he didn't realize the AP was off until 13 seconds later, and only then pre-occupy himself with trying to fix it? I'm sure the plane has a chime of some sort for AP disconnect and/or a central warning system message but those could have been missed.

109kts is not normal in a PC12 at 250. That's about 50kts too slow. There is also absolutely no way it would take 13 seconds to realize the AP was off. The only way to turn the AP off in the PC12 without it making a noise is to hold the CWS, and simultaneously pull the trigger and AP disconnect. If you hold CWS and hit the trigger you'll get a short beep, if you simply disconnect it hitting the AP Disc button on the yoke, the AP panel or if the AP disconnects itself, you get a long, loud continuous beep along with an amber message.

Extremely sad that a family lost their lives over this, but this sounds like pure incompetence/inexperience by the PIC.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I've had the AP kick off many times on me in the PC12 while in cruise for zero reason.

Why? This should be investigated. No system should just fail randomly for no reason, especially on a repetitive basis. While masking a lack of pilot skill by using the AP all the time isn't good, you have to admit their problems started when the AP kicked off. If he didn't correct the bank right away, it could very well be that he never heard the tone/chime for the AP off. AF 447 shows 3 pilots can zone out a "STALL STALL STALL" 75 times when you aren't focusing on it. Letting the airplane continue banking beyond 30 degrees is unacceptable, but this is probably due to him trying to reset the AP system. Was that taught to him in sim? A procedure he invented on the fly?

I don't trust PC12s pilot training programs. One pilot forgot to add some fuel additive, got an imbalance, and crashed while trying to land in Montana and killed several doctor families. Cause was pilot error for not putting in the fuel additive, getting the fuel flow frozen in one wing, severe imbalance and then crashing during a turn to land as a result. Another one crashed over central NJ a few years ago and killed a family after it spiraled out of control and crashed in the median of I-287 near Morristown. That picked up ice too quickly beyond the boots capability and the pilot didn't declare an emergency to get out sooner. Delayed reaction and it stalled. Another one for LabCorp went down in BTV, I don't recall the reason.

Of course we can all blame the pilot and move on, but if that's all we do, then we haven't learned.

 

[The Gardener]

I read elsewhere the PC 12 has an issue with the AP kicking off in turbulace. Can anybody verify that?

Yep. It's a quitter by all accounts. It'll disengage in anything more than light.

 

[gotWXdagain]

One of the things that I really dislike about the PC-12 is getting a master caution when you purposefully disconnect the autopilot, will you still get that if you push the CWS and trigger pull? The way I usually disconnect is just the trigger pull to keep flight director functions. That being said, an autopilot disconnect in cruise is more common than it needs to be although it still hasn't really happened on me too many times, and I don't think it's ever taken me 13 full seconds to realize what happened. FYI, the QRH says not to re-engage the autopilot after it trips off, in my experience I've had no problems re-engaging after it trips off on its own, is that more of a "don't go fumbling through the autopilot if you're in a busy flight environment" sort of thing I wonder?

 

[Baronman]

I don't trust PC12s pilot training programs. One pilot forgot to add some fuel additive, got an imbalance, and crashed while trying to land in Montana and killed several doctor families. Cause was pilot error for not putting in the fuel additive, getting the fuel flow frozen in one wing, severe imbalance and then crashing during a turn to land as a result. Another one crashed over central NJ a few years ago and killed a family after it spiraled out of control and crashed in the median of I-287 near Morristown. That picked up ice too quickly beyond the boots capability and the pilot didn't declare an emergency to get out sooner. Delayed reaction and it stalled. Another one for LabCorp went down in BTV, I don't recall the reason.

Of course we can all blame the pilot and move on, but if that's all we do, then we haven't learned.

Wasn't the NJ one a TBM?

Probably more indicative of high performance AC being flown single pilot by relatively inexperienced pilots encountering conditions that they're unaccostomed to. It's just that these aircraft have become accessible to the rich pilot. It used to be the Bonanza.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Wasn't the NJ one a TBM?

Probably more indicative of high performance AC being flown single pilot by relatively inexperienced pilots encountering conditions that they're unaccostomed to. It's just that these aircraft have become accessible to the rich pilot. It used to be the Bonanza.

My mistake, it was a TBM 700 for NJ. These aircraft are multi-million dollar (4 million for that PC12 that crashed in Florida?) whereas a Bonanza is several hundred thousand. I don't think it's all about the money. The training programs for single-pilot turbine civilian aircraft need to be much more thorough and stringent versus two-man crew training/operations. You don't have that extra set of eyes to catch mistakes!

 

[kiloalpha]

Wasn't the NJ one a TBM?

Probably more indicative of high performance AC being flown single pilot by relatively inexperienced pilots encountering conditions that they're unaccostomed to. It's just that these aircraft have become accessible to the rich pilot. It used to be the Bonanza.

The one in NJ was a TBM however the person in the left seat was a non-pilot. Guess where the de-ice switches are... yup, far left. Out of reach for anyone in the right seat.

 

[Mark815]

One of the things that I really dislike about the PC-12 is getting a master caution when you purposefully disconnect the autopilot, will you still get that if you push the CWS and trigger pull? The way I usually disconnect is just the trigger pull to keep flight director functions. That being said, an autopilot disconnect in cruise is more common than it needs to be although it still hasn't really happened on me too many times, and I don't think it's ever taken me 13 full seconds to realize what happened. FYI, the QRH says not to re-engage the autopilot after it trips off, in my experience I've had no problems re-engaging after it trips off on its own, is that more of a "don't go fumbling through the autopilot if you're in a busy flight environment" sort of thing I wonder?

You won't get the master caution if you use the trigger with the CWS. That was my preferred method of killing the AP. The way Pilatus seems to have designed it is, if you do the 3 method, it's silent, 2 method it's one beep with no caution, the single button method is a long beep with caution. I've also never had an issue re-engaging it after it went off, but I always monitored it closely for the first few minutes to ensure everything was working properly.

 

[dustoff17]

.............I don't trust PC12s pilot training programs. One pilot forgot to add some fuel additive, got an imbalance, and crashed while trying to land in Montana and killed several doctor families. Cause was pilot error for not putting in the fuel additive, getting the fuel flow frozen in one wing, severe imbalance and then crashing during a turn to land as a result. Another one crashed over central NJ a few years ago and killed a family after it spiraled out of control and crashed in the median of I-287 near Morristown. That picked up ice too quickly beyond the boots capability and the pilot didn't declare an emergency to get out sooner. Delayed reaction and it stalled. Another one for LabCorp went down in BTV, I don't recall the reason.

If I remember correctly this one was a LONG flight to the MT airport. This was not just a simple case of forgetting a fuel additive; his inattentiveness with regards to the fuel imbalance, continuing the flight well after such an imbalance would have been obvious and then making the base-to-final turn towards the loaded wing..these were the cause of the crash. Oh, yeah and he had more passengers than seats. Really hard to fault the airplane in any of these cases, including the one in this post.

Of course we can all blame the pilot and move on, but if that's all we do, then we haven't learned.

This is an unfair statement. Sure it was a VERY PREVENTABLE crash and sure it sucks that he took anyone with him, let alone his own family, but the bottom line is....it was his fault!
Even in the event of a pilot-error crash, we can learn, make adjustments, and move forward. We learn just as much from a discussion such as this due to the varied experience of our members as we learn from the mistakes that led up to the conversation!

If it had Airbus logic in normal law they'd still be alive today...

Wait, wasn't AF 447 equipped with normal law? Just askin'........

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Can't even imagine the "stuff" you'd have to fly through to break up a PC-12, they're built pretty solidly.

Wasn't "stuff". It was overpulling overspeed. Ripped the wings off... literally.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

If I remember correctly this one was a LONG flight to the MT airport. This was not just a simple case of forgetting a fuel additive; his inattentiveness with regards to the fuel imbalance, continuing the flight well after such an imbalance would have been obvious and then making the base-to-final turn towards the loaded wing..these were the cause of the crash. Oh, yeah and he had more passengers than seats. Really hard to fault the airplane in any of these cases, including the one in this post.

I heard about that. 9 seat aircraft with 13 passengers. Where did they all sit?

This is an unfair statement. Sure it was a VERY PREVENTABLE crash and sure it sucks that he took anyone with him, let alone his own family, but the bottom line is....it was his fault!
Even in the event of a pilot-error crash, we can learn, make adjustments, and move forward. We learn just as much from a discussion such as this due to the varied experience of our members as we learn from the mistakes that led up to the conversation!

I agree but with a caveat that the investigation needs to look into the PC12's automation. If people here are saying that it flips off all time and throws control back to the pilot, it should have been 1. investigated thoroughly to find a cause and fix that issue and 2. address training to let new pilots in type know that the AP is finicky at best and more manual flight control training in flight levels, especially without the AP. This would also have helped prevent AF447. Several times in history the AP has gone off in flight and the results have been less than stellar. What did him in was not the AP off, although that along with unmonitored flight path put him there, it was the unusual attitude recovery where he bungled up. Sure, pilot error and lack of airmanship, but for single-pilot operation, the industry can do better. IMO, upset training in an aerobatic or high performance aircraft should be required for all pilots.*


*I haven't done it, but am considering it.

Wait, wasn't AF 447 equipped with normal law? Just askin'........

He said 'in' normal law. AF447 had degraded to alternate law.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

Just reading how low time the guy was, how little time he had in the Pilatipus, how his sim partner said he was behind the plane at Simcom...





And...that he couldn't control an airplane with the autopilot off and went full aft on the controls 175 knots above maneuvering speed in a spiral dive.

It has all the hallmarks of a modern Bonanza/doctor saga.

ARGUS accident: Another Rich Guy Unable to Scan.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

Wasn't "stuff". It was overpulling overspeed. Ripped the wings off... literally.

The right wing failed approx. midspar and that portion penetrated the fuselage, ripped it, and sent one child to his death falling outside the plane.

 

[Deleted member 27505]

I heard about that. 9 seat aircraft with 13 passengers. Where did they all sit?



I agree but with a caveat that the investigation needs to look into the PC12's automation. If people here are saying that it flips off all time and throws control back to the pilot, it should have been 1. investigated thoroughly to find a cause and fix that issue and 2. address training to let new pilots in type know that the AP is finicky at best and more manual flight control training in flight levels, especially without the AP. This would also have helped prevent AF447. Several times in history the AP has gone off in flight and the results have been less than stellar. What did him in was not the AP off, although that along with unmonitored flight path put him there, it was the unusual attitude recovery where he bungled up. Sure, pilot error and lack of airmanship, but for single-pilot operation, the industry can do better. IMO, upset training in an aerobatic or high performance aircraft should be required for all pilots.*


*I haven't done it, but am considering it.




He said 'in' normal law. AF447 had degraded to alternate law.

If I crashed every time I inadvertently kicked off the autopilot, or had it drop on me for unknown reasons, I'd have died a thousand deaths. Fly the blessed airplane!!

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

The one in NJ was a TBM however the person in the left seat was a non-pilot. Guess where the de-ice switches are... yup, far left. Out of reach for anyone in the right seat.

They were on.

"A visual inspection of the pneumatic leading edge de-ice boots revealed no pre-existing ruptures or cracks and all observable boot fasteners were intact and secure. Impact damage prevented functional testing of the aircraft de-ice systems. The cockpit de-ice system panel was found intact. The airframe de-ice, propeller de-ice, pitot heat 1 and 2, and stall warning heater switches were found in the “ON” positions."


This case had severe icing reported in that area. Pilots of a CRJ and an AA MD88 reported it was the worst icing they had ever seen in their careers. The ATC handling that particular section did report they were considering shutting down the airway affected by the severe ice.

 

[killbilly]

IIMO, upset training in an aerobatic or high performance aircraft should be required for all pilots.*


*I haven't done it, but am considering it.

I have. You should. Totally worth it.

I've only done basics so far. Working the IR right now but I will definitely return to it.

 

[z987k]

I heard about that. 9 seat aircraft with 13 passengers. Where did they all sit?



I agree but with a caveat that the investigation needs to look into the PC12's automation. If people here are saying that it flips off all time and throws control back to the pilot, it should have been 1. investigated thoroughly to find a cause and fix that issue and 2. address training to let new pilots in type know that the AP is finicky at best and more manual flight control training in flight levels, especially without the AP. This would also have helped prevent AF447. Several times in history the AP has gone off in flight and the results have been less than stellar. What did him in was not the AP off, although that along with unmonitored flight path put him there, it was the unusual attitude recovery where he bungled up. Sure, pilot error and lack of airmanship, but for single-pilot operation, the industry can do better. IMO, upset training in an aerobatic or high performance aircraft should be required for all pilots.*


*I haven't done it, but am considering it.




He said 'in' normal law. AF447 had degraded to alternate law.

Ya but everyone will complain about the costs. Personally, I'd like to see various forms of inverted flight in the commercial syllabus.

 

[deadstick]

I heard about that. 9 seat aircraft with 13 passengers. Where did they all sit?

I think all but 3 were children, and they shared seats. I'm not sure why, but I thought the FAA said this was ok. Something about total weight of the seat not exceeding a certain value.