Update on 3407
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Boris Badenov
This is no laughing matter.
Of course. I'm not qualified to be making assessments of stall recovery techniques in the Big Iron, at all. That said, when was the last time you read an accident brief that involved someone making a crater because they pushed forward too much during a stall recovery? Food for thought is all. Wings act like wings, whatever the wing loading or size.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I love those qualifying statements followed with the "watch I'll do it anyway".
This reply isn't about that though. I brought up the topic because there was a lot of back and forth about this pitch or that pitch when talking about stall recovery. Problem I saw was everyone keeps talking about this pitch or that pitch in relation to their normal stall recovery. Still haven't found anyone talking about deep stall recovery close to the ground. I thought it might be interesting to put out a fundamental principal of the stall and see what I got back. So far it's pretty confusing.
All things being equal, increase speed, by increasing power, will change your relative wind for the better. Your angle of attack decreases. All i seem to hear from you is "hey you'll crash doing that because someone else did." Let's actually have a conversation about it instead of sniping or qualifying yourself (or de-qualing in your take).
Add power and get some speed built up, I think everyone can agree to that. How much do you drop the nose in a deep stall? If the pusher is active I would think you would relax till the pusher (shaker follows shortly after) goes away then bring her back up like a windshear. Ride the shaker back up till you have a positive rate.
Baronpilot244
Killick Stoker
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Very good point.
Number1atNumber2
Tries to keep it fun.
Wasn't this the initial thought on what the cause of this crash was?
I'm also curious as to what approach speed of the Q400 is.
tgrayson
New Member
Your speed doesn't come back without an AoA change, other than a brief fluctuations. With a thrust increment, the aircraft will assume a climb attitude appropriate for the trimmed airspeed.
Your AoA is caused by the summation of the pitching moments around the airplane, primarily the elevator, although as I noted, a thrust line above or below the CG can affect this as well.
If you're stalled, nothing other than an AoA change will fix that.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
I agree I always thought it was odd they taught "maintain altitude or you fail" on the maneuver.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
I can only, YET AGAIN, refer you to the orginal comment I made that said hold the same pitch and all other things being equal.
Boris Badenov
This is no laughing matter.
Well, to be fair, you're not really qualified, either, unless you're an aerodynamicist. I'm happy to discuss my layman's understanding of aerodynamics, though. I labor under the impression that reducing AoA will necessarily improve stall recovery. My equally unqualified understanding is that the argument against reducing AoA is that you don't want to go down any more than you already are/have. I'm positing the possibility that losing some altitude could, statistically, be a better move than trying to power out with "minimal altitude loss". It's a possibility, and it's no more refuted by "you're a big dummy, shut up." than it is proven by it. I build in to my questions that there are people with much better info and predispositions who have looked at this and made certain decisions. But if you're not one of them, don't pull rank.
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
Odd... that was my thoughts back when it happened, that the pusher would mimic a tailplane stall in the q...
But in all honesty, the Q's engines can give you a little over 14,000hp (so long as the fadec allows it), which would require going to full over travel. At max gross, that is 4.6lbs/hp It should, and will power out of a stall in those conditions. Also, the gearing, at torque set up on the Q keeps the N1 in the optimal efficiency range for nearly all phases of flight, part of the reason why it won't slow down, but also means, if you slam the power up... there is almost no spool time, it's there. I've found many faults on this airplane, but the powerplants are phenominal.
Im not sure what the loading is, but I would guess somewhere near 54,000 lbs at arrival, So in full overtravel even if they were limited to 5000shp/side,(roughly mtop) they would have 5.4lb/hp. At full rated power, 3.85lb/hp.
Stall recovery in the Q is pretty much tought to unleash the motors, while holding on. The area where I've seen stuff go wrong is that F'in Yaw dampner. On a normal change from cruise or descent to climb power, it will give you nearly full ball deflection, and you really have to use your feet. Going from Flight Idle to full overtravel at a very slow airspeed would be a monster to get a handle of. You would need fast, and heavy rudder imput to keep it centered... which if flying on autopilot, the likelyhood of your feet being on the rudder pedals is slim. I also know that it took me at least a good 100 hours to get used to stepping on a rudder every time i change power, even with the yaw dampner on. I'm sure most of you can see where I'm going with this, so I will stop there.
That being said, there are some features of this A/C that were kept for a common type, which really shouldn't have been... and the limitations on these systems should be taught in training, and hammered into peoples minds. In a normal recovery A/S recovers fast enough that cross controling, or uncoordination will not upset anything except the drink carts. If it actually hit the crit AoA, and stalled... I would expect alot to go bad real fast. - (I would not be in the least bit supprised if this airplane climbed well at 31 deg pitch while in full overtravel... at max climb with 45 people on board it will do 180kts at 15 deg nose up...)
Was any of this related to the accident? prob. not. i have no idea. I do doubt this was caused by one cause. Do I see lots of chances for that fatal domino to be removed? yes. I hope we can all learn more from this than don't get slow.
In regards to the second incident... That only has me steaming mad... pissed, there is simply no excuse for it, and yes I do have the full story on it. I think you will find any other Colgan pilot on here shaking their heads at it. Some will fault training, which... but at some point we have to open our eyes and fly straight.
Finaly, for those who asked, Normal profile as now is given to us, 180kts to GS, no less than 160 to the marker, slowing for ref over the fence. - or as atc needs - roughly.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
No, I was merely observing your self aggrandizing statement, and I didn't want the post to be about it which is why I continued off that topic. Interesting, though, your reaction. I leave it for others to make their own decisions. I made it clear I was trying to get away from the sniping fest this back and forth was/is turning into.
I wanted to impress that if you held pitch and increase power that increases speed and begins the recovery. The increase in speed changes the relative wind. Is it enough? I sure am curious. Irregardless that is not what you have been answering to. Either you are misreading, reading something into, or jumping on a tangent I can't follow in your replies. Perhaps it would help if you took some of your own advice and waited for someone with Q experience to speak.
Edit: BTW, didn't call you a dummy at any time. Unless you take offense to my request that you actually read my statement instead of picking apart things that I didn't say. You can have this conversation on your own if that's what you want, but it right up there to be read. Gonna be tough.
SpiceWeasel
Tre Kronor
And this goes along with the MikeD school of thought that there isn't always one RIGHT way of doing things, and that we as pilots need to not fall into the mindset of blindly following procedure.
That being said (hey, my qualifier!!), if this had been an accident under our CFM (since I don't know what 9L's says), and they had attempted, in stall recovery, to lower the nose to recover, the NTSB would be reporting that the pilots violated the company procedure.
Digest this again for a moment. In our manual, it says the following should be done in stall recovery:
Pitch up aggressively, respecting the shaker
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
The EMB-145 would also require some back pressure when you went full power during a stall recovery, partly because of where the engines were, but also because of the direction the thrust went (down, the engines are angled). It was counter intuitive, but I think the point was to, as you said, minimize altitude loss until you could get the thing cleaned up and climbing.
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
Q400 Ref Speeds with flaps 35:
Max: 135 (Vref ICE)/120 (Vref) @ 62,000lbs
Min: 116 (Vref ICE)/101 (Vref) @ 45/46,000lbs (approx)
At Horizon we're taught that the Q4 is highly unlikely to experience a tail stall and that we are to recover all stalls as wing stalls. "Q400 is not susceptible to tail stall due to its T-tail configuration, powered elevator, and efficient airfoil design, and the Q400 pilot must not consider it in a stall response."
On approaches at Horizon we brief the approach to be flown and at what bug it will be flown at (Vref ICE, Vref).
Max: 135 (Vref ICE)/120 (Vref) @ 62,000lbs
Min: 116 (Vref ICE)/101 (Vref) @ 45/46,000lbs (approx)
At Horizon we're taught that the Q4 is highly unlikely to experience a tail stall and that we are to recover all stalls as wing stalls. "Q400 is not susceptible to tail stall due to its T-tail configuration, powered elevator, and efficient airfoil design, and the Q400 pilot must not consider it in a stall response."
On approaches at Horizon we brief the approach to be flown and at what bug it will be flown at (Vref ICE, Vref).
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
I would really love to get my hands on a Horizon afm/fop... to see where it differs. We pretty much bought ours from FS/Bomb, and I think many here find it lacking, redundant, or just plain odd.
in training, Tail stalls were never mentioned, the increased ref guidance was almost non existant, and general techniqe was made up on the go it seemed.
tgrayson
New Member
Which, as I pointed out earlier, requires an AoA change. You cannot hold the same pitch with a thrust increase unless the AoA is reduced via some pitching mechanism, such as relaxing the yoke (or pushing) or if the thrustline is above the CG.
Thrust, if it acts through the CG, cannot produce permanent AoA change, because the AoA is caused by the pitching mechanism of the aircraft. If the thrust alters the flight path of the aircraft (as it must), the aircraft will just weathervane into the new relative wind at the existing AoA.
jynxyjoe
Queso King
Are you confusing me saying hold the control interface still vs: hold the pitch the same.
If one holds the pitch angle the same while increasing speed that means that one is making pitch adjustments. I would think that goes without saying, yet here I am saying it.
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
I've honestly never seen the FS/Bombardier standards manuals for the Q4, so I wouldn't be able to tell you what the differences are.
When you're coming out of FL180 and/or doing the decent checklist, what are you setting as far as bugs go for landing?
Our Decent checklist is:
Fasten Belts - On
Pressurization - Set
GWPS Landing Flap - Set (Either 15 or 35)
Bugs - (54,000lbs, flaps 35, bugs 126 (vref ice)/111 (vref), MDA/RA (if needed) Set
Altimeters - __.__ Set
Briefing - Complete
Typically on a visual approach I'll set my MDA bug to 1000ft above airport elevation (to make sure I know where I need to be configured by). For all approaches we set Vref ICE/Vref bugs.
Does that differ at Colgan?
How do y'all decide to keep the speeds increased or off? We have on the Landing Checklist (below the line), that we visually check the wings for contamination, if they're clean the speeds off, if not, speeds on and fly solid blue bug (Vref ICE).
When you're coming out of FL180 and/or doing the decent checklist, what are you setting as far as bugs go for landing?
Our Decent checklist is:
Fasten Belts - On
Pressurization - Set
GWPS Landing Flap - Set (Either 15 or 35)
Bugs - (54,000lbs, flaps 35, bugs 126 (vref ice)/111 (vref), MDA/RA (if needed) Set
Altimeters - __.__ Set
Briefing - Complete
Typically on a visual approach I'll set my MDA bug to 1000ft above airport elevation (to make sure I know where I need to be configured by). For all approaches we set Vref ICE/Vref bugs.
Does that differ at Colgan?
How do y'all decide to keep the speeds increased or off? We have on the Landing Checklist (below the line), that we visually check the wings for contamination, if they're clean the speeds off, if not, speeds on and fly solid blue bug (Vref ICE).
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