United q400 RFP

Negotiated

lol

Fixed it for you.

I'm not sure if people who haven't worked for a company have the best idea of how things work there, you know? I wasn't a "company guy" there by any means, and the lack of union representation played a sizable factor in my leaving. That being said, to say that the company and SAPA aren't "negotiating" is disingenuous. The company *cannot* simply implement whatever pay it desires. Per the policy manual, pay rates must be agreed upon by SAPA. I guess the company could just disband SAPA and pay whatever they want, but as of now they cannot legally say "here's an airplane and you'll fly it for this much". SAPA obviously does not have the leverage of a real union, but they do a pretty impressive job considering the tools they are given.
 
I'm not sure if people who haven't worked for a company have the best idea of how things work there, you know? I wasn't a "company guy" there by any means, and the lack of union representation played a sizable factor in my leaving. That being said, to say that the company and SAPA aren't "negotiating" is disingenuous. The company *cannot* simply implement whatever pay it desires. Per the policy manual, pay rates must be agreed upon by SAPA. I guess the company could just disband SAPA and pay whatever they want, but as of now they cannot legally say "here's an airplane and you'll fly it for this much". SAPA obviously does not have the leverage of a real union, but they do a pretty impressive job considering the tools they are given.

Can SAPA, and the skywest pilots, strike?
 
Can SAPA, and the skywest pilots, strike?

No, they can't...hence the

SAPA obviously does not have the leverage of a real union

But you know that it's not as simple as Skywest telling the pilots what they'll make.

Even more than that, how do the SkyWest pilots have any confidence in the autonomy of the SAPA group? From the outside looking in, it seems so shallow.

Like I said, that's from the outside. How does any union have confidence in their elected officials? SAPA officials are elected by the pilots, plain and simple. I knew a lot of them and trusted them to do the right thing. Sure, some were company guys, but we knew who was and who wasn't. It would absolutely be better if SAPA was pilot-funded, but only for the ability to have a legal fund to fight the company and the FAA...we'd still elect the same people. I would have *loved* to see the current president backed with a CBA--the guy would have made a phenomenal MEC chair. That doesn't mean he's not doing a decent job with the tools he's given.
 
Like I said, that's from the outside. How does any union have confidence in their elected officials? SAPA officials are elected by the pilots, plain and simple. I knew a lot of them and trusted them to do the right thing. Sure, some were company guys, but we knew who was and who wasn't. It would absolutely be better if SAPA was pilot-funded, but only for the ability to have a legal fund to fight the company and the FAA...we'd still elect the same people. I would have *loved* to see the current president backed with a CBA--the guy would have made a phenomenal MEC chair. That doesn't mean he's not doing a decent job with the tools he's given.

I think you mean how do any pilots have any faith in the union. For me it was the continuing LOA agreements, the ability to close grievances, large network of volunteer pilots, communication and plenty of people on the phone to talk to. If the SAPA guys do all that and no dues then good for you, but a lot of us sit around asking about the health benefit change which initially begin with no money in that savings account, to finally giving them 2,000, jumpseaters who ask a lot of questions about our QOL at Mesaba and our contract, blah blah blah. Anyway, it's been interesting dealing with them in and out of the cockpit (especially at SLC).
 
Per the policy manual, pay rates must be agreed upon by SAPA.

Aroo? Are you saying its in your flight ops manual or something?

Some of us may think management is dumb, but they arent. Skywest management is smart. Put in a look-a-like union and play along with it, but absolutely no fear of a strike or any real negotiations required by law.
 
I think you mean how do any pilots have any faith in the union.

Yes.
For me it was the continuing LOA agreements, the ability to close grievances, large network of volunteer pilots, communication and plenty of people on the phone to talk to. If the SAPA guys do all that and no dues then good for you

You asked about the autonomy of the SAPA leadership, which is what I responded to, but now you're turning it into a union/nonunion argument...and I've stated where I stand on that.

Again, there is *no doubt* in my mind that the current SAPA leadership is not being influenced by management any more that union leaders at other airlines are. SAPA is able to do all the things you mention above, but the fact that they are not part of a national union limits their ability in several areas (grievance process, legal and aeromedical assistance, etc).

, but a lot of us sit around asking about the health benefit change which initially begin with no money in that savings account, to finally giving them 2,000

That was a huge kick in the nuts when it came out, and the company did backpedal substantially. In the end, my plan stayed intact (although the premiums went up by like $8/month or something). There was nothing SAPA could do about it because benefit changes had not been included in the policy manual. They saw their mistake and included language protecting at least some of the health care options in the most recent policy manual. But again, that's a product of not having a true CBA and negotiating assistance from a national union.

I'm just taking exception to your comment on the autonomy of SAPA, not which system works better. It sounds weird for the company to pay the salaries of SAPA people who piss them off, but that's exactly what they do (and they probably see that as the price of being non-union). There have been company lackey SAPA guys in the past, but those are generally a reflection of pilot attitude rather than management influence.

Aroo? Are you saying its in your flight ops manual or something?

It's in Skywest's (I don't work there anymore) pilot policy manual. Believe it or not, the company can not amend the manual without the consent of SAPA. I'm not sure if they would dissolve SAPA to get around that and radically change the PPM (that would be an express train to ALPA), but as long as SAPA exists they need SAPA approval for any changes to it. Things that are nebulously written or otherwise open to interpretation are *very* problematic, and it doesn't really lay out procedures for holding the company accountable for times when it violates the PPM, but on things that are spelled out clearly like pay scales there's nothing they can do to force their will.
 
I've heard that UAL wants to diversity it's Q feed...I think the SURE parent company should work hard at getting at SLC/ATL/IAH. If the union was smart we'd offer low rates, make it competitive just to get the aircraft on property. Then we'll work on bringing rates up. That's the way to grow. Sad but true, get the ac here first, then worry about the pay.

Not true. Reference our (SKYW) ridiculous BHO for the 700/900 series. That turned out to a case of the "let'sgetthemherenowandthenwe'llmaketheratesbetter-itis" gone wrong.
 
Does anyone think that Commut might be bidding on these?


Sent from my iPhone using the power of bear stuffs
 
Does anyone think that Commut might be bidding on these?

Definitely possible. CommutAir uses leases though which are VERY expensive. It takes a large amount of work to find lessors for 15+ new airplanes. If they were to buy them outright, the pre-delivery costs for a new Q is $3-4 million.

All depends on their financial picture.
 
Most of you Sapa haters are clueless. The guys who are in Sapa are mostly pro Alpa and anything but management goons. You dorks do realize that there are zillions of written contracts on earth that don't require a certified union to be valid in court? Just because a certified union isn't on one end of the deal doesn't mean a companies management wants to go to court over a signed valid written contract. Plenty of bottom barrel crapholes like Colgan and Mesa prove without a doubt that a union is not the end all.

I am pro ALPA and I am also impressed with what SAPA does with what it has.
 
Most of you Sapa haters are clueless. The guys who are in Sapa are mostly pro Alpa and anything but management goons. You dorks do realize that there are zillions of written contracts on earth that don't require a certified union to be valid in court? Just because a certified union isn't on one end of the deal doesn't mean a companies management wants to go to court over a signed valid written contract. Plenty of bottom barrel crapholes like Colgan and Mesa prove without a doubt that a union is not the end all.

I am pro ALPA and I am also impressed with what SAPA does with what it has.

I found your mom in the bottom of the barrel and I put it in her craphole...
 
Most of you Sapa haters are clueless. The guys who are in Sapa are mostly pro Alpa and anything but management goons. You dorks do realize that there are zillions of written contracts on earth that don't require a certified union to be valid in court? Just because a certified union isn't on one end of the deal doesn't mean a companies management wants to go to court over a signed valid written contract. Plenty of bottom barrel crapholes like Colgan and Mesa prove without a doubt that a union is not the end all.

I am pro ALPA and I am also impressed with what SAPA does with what it has.


No one is saying they are management goons. But at the end of the day SAPA has no money or lawyers to fight anything the companies does. So yes they have a written contract but have no real way to enforce it.
 
Most of you Sapa haters are clueless. The guys who are in Sapa are mostly pro Alpa and anything but management goons. You dorks do realize that there are zillions of written contracts on earth that don't require a certified union to be valid in court? Just because a certified union isn't on one end of the deal doesn't mean a companies management wants to go to court over a signed valid written contract. Plenty of bottom barrel crapholes like Colgan and Mesa prove without a doubt that a union is not the end all.

I am pro ALPA and I am also impressed with what SAPA does with what it has.

Funny.. at 9l I'm making as much as a CA on the q as I would on the crj 7/9 at skywest. But its cool, I mean I hate paying 298/ month for top tier medical coverage. Having a legal team to back up the pilots is such a bummer, I mean, why bother?
 
SKYWEST NEGOTIATIONS

Skywest Management- "We're willing to pay you current 200 rates,"

SAPA Prez to SAPA Secretary - "Tell the guys we negotiated 200 rates for them."
you are flat wrong and know nothing of what you speak here...I can tell you first hand.
 
Funny.. at 9l I'm making as much as a CA on the q as I would on the crj 7/9 at skywest.

Help me out with the math...as far as straight pay rates go, after year 1 there's not a single year when a Q400 CA makes as much as a CRJ200 CA at Skywest, let alone the 700/900. Unless you guys have some awesome soft time work rules that Skywest doesn't, I'm having a lot of difficulty with your claim.

But its cool, I mean I hate paying 298/ month for top tier medical coverage. Having a legal team to back up the pilots is such a bummer, I mean, why bother?

You're totally missing the point. Every Skywest pilot here is acknowledging the shortcomings of not having a true union and CBA...but the perception that most of the outsiders have of how things work there is simply incorrect.
 
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