United — Dropping Regionals in Favor of Mainlines, May Lose Two Hubs

[bp]

@Murdoughnut I'm assuming eminent domain costs on an airport due to expansion are minuscule compared to hundreds of miles of track and associated easement. You would have to present a rather sweet deal to local communities on the economic benefit of high speed rail to give up their peace and quiet in the country to this.
Maybe if they tried improving existing AMTRAK railways to utilize higher speed technologies as a proving run there would be a better argument for it. Truck traffic and freight movement are definitely causing a ton of damage to the interstate highway system that isn't being repaired, if we're going to continue growing as a nation I'm going to assume that high speed rail will have to have a role in freight transport at some point. Too energy efficient to ignore

Also, because fast trains

 

[Murdoughnut]

@Murdoughnut I'm assuming eminent domain costs on an airport due to expansion are minuscule compared to hundreds of miles of track and associated easement. You would have to present a rather sweet deal to local communities on the economic benefit of high speed rail to give up their peace and quiet in the country to this.
Maybe if they tried improving existing AMTRAK railways to utilize higher speed technologies as a proving run there would be a better argument for it. Truck traffic and freight movement are definitely causing a ton of damage to the interstate highway system that isn't being repaired, if we're going to continue growing as a nation I'm going to assume that high speed rail will have to have a role in freight transport at some point. Too energy efficient to ignore

Also, because fast trains

Oh I don't see this as something airports would fund. Airports would only fund the infrastructure on their ends - building stations and facilities on their end. The actual rail and cost of securing land (unless using right of way along existing highways) would have to be state or federally funded.

 

[Beep]

@Murdoughnut I'm assuming eminent domain costs on an airport due to expansion are minuscule compared to hundreds of miles of track and associated easement. You would have to present a rather sweet deal to local communities on the economic benefit of high speed rail to give up their peace and quiet in the country to this.
Maybe if they tried improving existing AMTRAK railways to utilize higher speed technologies as a proving run there would be a better argument for it. Truck traffic and freight movement are definitely causing a ton of damage to the interstate highway system that isn't being repaired, if we're going to continue growing as a nation I'm going to assume that high speed rail will have to have a role in freight transport at some point. Too energy efficient to ignore

Also, because fast trains

There would have to be a lot higher degree of track and equipment maintenance on a set up like this than any profit driven entity in the US would probably be interested in paying for.
Seriously, a slightly worn suspension on a car, a section of track that is a little out of gauge, a problem with a section of track bedding... If that thing starts truck hunting at those speeds it would be catastrophic!

 

[Zondaracer]

Another problem with trains, especially out west, is what do I do for transportation when I get to my destination? If I take a train from Ft Collins to Colorado Springs, I will need to rent a car ir pay for Uber or a taxi once I get to the Springs, as an example.

 

[FloridaLarry]

Rail: No one talks about seat pitch, seat width, free luggage, no standing in line for a hour at TSA, etc. - On all of which they are a clear winner over air travel. Often also that last-mile convenience. Yet it can't make much of a dent in the transportation picture.

Perception, perception, perception.

 

[Burrito]

Rail: No one talks about seat pitch, seat width, free luggage, no standing in line for a hour at TSA, etc. - On all of which they are a clear winner over air travel. Often also that last-mile convenience. Yet it can't make much of a dent in the transportation picture.

Perception, perception, perception.

seat assignment as well. Family of 4 got on at that last stop and the kids went nuclear? Guess it's time for the next car down the consist.

 

[Avgirl]

Rail: No one talks about seat pitch, seat width, free luggage, no standing in line for a hour at TSA, etc. - On all of which they are a clear winner over air travel. Often also that last-mile convenience. Yet it can't make much of a dent in the transportation picture.

Perception, perception, perception.

It is all about the industry. Who loses out if light rail becomes reality? The auto industry, and aviation are much stronger with their backings. If you want to say political backings, that would would work, too.

 

[Roger Roger]

Rail: No one talks about seat pitch, seat width, free luggage, no standing in line for a hour at TSA, etc. - On all of which they are a clear winner over air travel. Often also that last-mile convenience. Yet it can't make much of a dent in the transportation picture.

Perception, perception, perception.

A lot of that is because there's no competition and little profit incentive in rail right now. If rail ever becomes big I can guarantee you'll see seat pitches squashed and TSA craziness (after the first rail terrorist attack of course). Maybe not baggage fees though.

 

[FloridaLarry]

We may have a new laboratory for this here in Florida. Powerful interests, backed by the Florida East Coast RR's parent company, are pushing a plan called All Aboard Florida (a.k.a. Brightline). It will connect Orlando to Miami, via West Palm and Fort Lauderdale. High speed, few stops, passengers only. Much of the way, there is a single track (for now - you can count on a push for a second set of rails before long!). Private enterprise, probably backed by gov't guaranteed loans (their bonds haven't sold).

Air: When I looked just now, there are 10 NS between Orlando and Miami, NONE to Palm Beach, and five (three of which are Saab turbo-props) to Fort Lauderdale. The one-stops are ludicrous: Delta through Atlanta, JB through DCA or BOS, UA through CLE and EWK, and my favorite: Orlando - Key West - Reagan National - Fort Lauderdale. A trusty car does the 229 mi (MCO-MIA) in three and a half hours. Add parking and TSA, and the time is within an hour or so. All this to take some of 2,400 PAX a day out of the air, and some off I-95. Projected cost: $1.7 Billion.

Costs: new intermodal RR stations, new track from Orlando east to Cocoa FL where none exists, track improvements to support the new high-speed rail equipment, and grade crossing improvements - a LOT of grade crossings, and about six new bridges over navigable water.

My guess: other than the bragging rights (how long do bragging rights last for failed boondoggles?) it's a stalking horse for more freight by rail. Deep-water shipping ports are pretty maxed out north of Miami through the Chesapeake Bay area. Add the second set of tracks, and you can have 120-car freight trains passing each other and doubling the blockage when an ambulance with a stroke patient is waiting to go through a grade crossing enroute to the ER.

I hate to be a luddite about this, but it makes no economic sense, creates very limited benefits to a few (No station at Trump's mansion in West Palm), and has a lot of public opposition.

 

[Avgirl]

We may have a new laboratory for this here in Florida. Powerful interests, backed by the Florida East Coast RR's parent company, are pushing a plan called All Aboard Florida (a.k.a. Brightline). It will connect Orlando to Miami, via West Palm and Fort Lauderdale. High speed, few stops, passengers only. Much of the way, there is a single track (for now - you can count on a push for a second set of rails before long!). Private enterprise, probably backed by gov't guaranteed loans (their bonds haven't sold).

Air: When I looked just now, there are 10 NS between Orlando and Miami, NONE to Palm Beach, and five (three of which are Saab turbo-props) to Fort Lauderdale. The one-stops are ludicrous: Delta through Atlanta, JB through DCA or BOS, UA through CLE and EWK, and my favorite: Orlando - Key West - Reagan National - Fort Lauderdale. A trusty car does the 229 mi (MCO-MIA) in three and a half hours. Add parking and TSA, and the time is within an hour or so. All this to take some of 2,400 PAX a day out of the air, and some off I-95. Projected cost: $1.7 Billion.

Costs: new intermodal RR stations, new track from Orlando east to Cocoa FL where none exists, track improvements to support the new high-speed rail equipment, and grade crossing improvements - a LOT of grade crossings, and about six new bridges over navigable water.

My guess: other than the bragging rights (how long do bragging rights last for failed boondoggles?) it's a stalking horse for more freight by rail. Deep-water shipping ports are pretty maxed out north of Miami through the Chesapeake Bay area. Add the second set of tracks, and you can have 120-car freight trains passing each other and doubling the blockage when an ambulance with a stroke patient is waiting to go through a grade crossing enroute to the ER.

I hate to be a luddite about this, but it makes no economic sense, creates very limited benefits to a few (No station at Trump's mansion in West Palm), and has a lot of public opposition.

Pretty sure Trump sold that Mansion. Change is difficult. Ultimately, that is the biggest problem in the equation. How many times a day does anyone hear we do something because its always been done that way?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

A lot of that is because there's no competition and little profit incentive in rail right now. If rail ever becomes big I can guarantee you'll see seat pitches squashed and TSA craziness (after the first rail terrorist attack of course). Maybe not baggage fees though.

Cal-HSRA is planning on having TSA-style security theater.

 

[killbilly]

I didn't really understand the value and advantage of rail until I moved into the Northeast Corridor - I frequently use the Acela express train between DC and NYC and it is, in a word, fantastic. It frequently hits 135mph - I don't know if that qualifies as high-speed rail, but it's remarkably smooth and quiet. We need a lot more of it.

I'd love to see @Murdoughnut's idea proven out. Pretty interesting.

 

[FloridaLarry]

The definitions of what's "high-speed rail" vary all over the world, and even from state to state in the US. In Europe, generally new construction is 155 MPH, up-graded construction is 124 MPH.

The US Dept of Transportation has four categories:

• High-Speed Rail – Express: Frequent, express service between major population centers 200–600 miles (320–965 km) apart, with few intermediate stops. Top speeds of at least 150 mph (240 km/h) on completely grade-separated, dedicated rights-of-way (with the possible exception of some shared track in terminal areas). Intended to relieve air and highway capacity constraints.
• High-Speed Rail – Regional: Relatively frequent service between major and moderate population centers 100–500 miles (160–800 km) apart, with some intermediate stops. Top speeds of 110–150 mph (177–240 km/h), grade-separated, with some dedicated and some shared track (using positive train control technology). Intended to relieve highway and, to some extent, air capacity constraints.
• Emerging High-Speed Rail: Developing corridors of 100–500 miles (160–800 km), with strong potential for future HSR Regional and/or Express service. Top speeds of up to 90–110 mph (145–177 km/h) on primarily shared track (eventually using positive train control technology), with advanced grade crossing protection or separation. Intended to develop the passenger rail market, and provide some relief to other modes.
• Conventional Rail: Traditional intercity passenger rail services of more than 100 miles with as little as one to as many as 7–12 daily frequencies; may or may not have strong potential for future high-speed rail service. Top speeds of up to 79 mph to as high as 90 mph generally on shared track. Intended to provide travel options and to develop the passenger rail market for further development in the future.

This shows where their heads are, vis-a-vis the future. We can thank two things for our country being laggards: The much longer distances between cities in the US, which means much higher construction costs and longer inter-city times. The other is us: a robust system of air transportation at speeds the trains just can't yet come close to for longer-distances. Add politicians and stir.

The rest of the world is way ahead of the US here. There's even one in Uzbekistan.

Wikipedia is a good place for a decent history and country-by-country update, with lots of pictures.

 

[Lawman]

The rest of the world is way ahead of the US here. There's even one in Uzbekistan.

.

The rest of the world doesn't have a population where the average family has multiple passenger cars and/or SUVs.

Seriously it's ingrained in our culture and evident in the Urban constructs we have. The suburb I grew up in was larger than any town in the part of Italy I lived in save for the city of Brinidisi. We were the small suburb of the area. People moving out of population centers makes rail even less profitable because outside major cities we lack even the local transport to get to the rail transport hubs. The baggage we carry on airlines is a symptom for how different we are from the rest of the world. They can't haul that big giant luggage on a train (believe me I've gotten looks doing it from Nuremberg to Frankfurt).

Even the way we grocery shop in the US is different from the rest of the world. We bulk buy because we can pack it all in the trunk of a car and drive it home. In a place like Rural Germany Costco wouldn't work. You cant transport what you just bought easily (400 toilet rolls and 20 gallons of salad dressing on a train) and when you get it home you don't have the storage for it.

Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of mass transit. The London tube system is a thing to behold, but it's a tool that requires proper application not a magic fix to all problems.


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[A Life Aloft]

The rest of the world doesn't have a population where the average family has multiple passenger cars and/or SUVs.

Seriously it's ingrained in our culture and evident in the Urban constructs we have. The suburb I grew up in was larger than any town in the part of Italy I lived in save for the city of Brinidisi. We were the small suburb of the area. People moving out of population centers makes rail even less profitable because outside major cities we lack even the local transport to get to the rail transport hubs. The baggage we carry on airlines is a symptom for how different we are from the rest of the world. They can't haul that big giant luggage on a train (believe me I've gotten looks doing it from Nuremberg to Frankfurt).

Even the way we grocery shop in the US is different from the rest of the world. We bulk buy because we can pack it all in the trunk of a car and drive it home. In a place like Rural Germany Costco wouldn't work. You cant transport what you just bought easily (400 toilet rolls and 20 gallons of salad dressing on a train) and when you get it home you don't have the storage for it.

Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of mass transit. The London tube system is a thing to behold, but it's a tool that requires proper application not a magic fix to all problems.


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Now if only someone could explain/convince Jerry Brown of this.

 

[Lawman]

Now if only someone could explain/convince Jerry Brown of this.

At this point Cali High Speed rail is gonna happen out of spite alone. To many people have expended too much political capital and staked reputations on making it happen.

It's a shame too because that money could go into a lot of other more local level transit systems and had a much more effective impact on both traffic and environmental concerns.


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[FloridaLarry]

Now if only someone could explain/convince Jerry Brown of this.

It's a problem for politicians. With the 24 hour news cycle, they feel pressure to provide instant answers when ambushed by a journo. They also know a future opponent will jack them up if they change their minds.

While at the moment, it seems more like a Trumpian problem, it's true on both sides of the aisle.

Think, Speak. In that order.

 

[chrisreedrules]

High speed trains are a pipe-dream. The cost to buy up the land to lay the rail is cost prohibitive enough.

 

[amorris311]

High speed trains are a pipe-dream. The cost to buy up the land to lay the rail is cost prohibitive enough.

Not a pipe dream. It's happening already in select parts of the country.

 

[A Life Aloft]

At this point Cali High Speed rail is gonna happen out of spite alone. To many people have expended too much political capital and staked reputations on making it happen.

It's a shame too because that money could go into a lot of other more local level transit systems and had a much more effective impact on both traffic and environmental concerns.


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We have not built one new reservoir in this state in 65 years. Not one. Drought issues and no water anyone? They drained the GD huge Silverlake reservoir over a year ago to replace some pipes under it and it's still dry as a bone. Yet we have plenty of water from the LA river running off, uncaptured, into the sea. Bejebus. We get a new tax on gasoline each and every year which is supposed to go for fixing repairs the roads in this state. It goes into the general fund and is used for other issues and no roads are ever repaired, so the following year we get another tax. This has been going on for decades. He even imposed an extra fee on car registrations and still the freeways, highways, bridges and roads are in terrible disrepair.

Over 70% of the citizens here want the rail program killed and the monies spent where they could actually do some good for everyone. There's going to be a measure on our November ballot about this now finally.

We need more equipment (not just short term leases) and trained Firemen, to fight wildfires in the state that we experience each year. We have a terrible homeless issue and not enough facilities to care and feed them and offer medical aid for them, help with addictions, job training and housing. We need more no kill shelters and cheap/free neuter, spay and vaccination clinics. We desperately need more low cost senior housing. We need more mobile medical clinics to go into poor areas to help adults and children. But this jackass thinks some train that is going to cost ten times what was proposed and will be slower than flying or even driving at this point and is in the middle of fricking nowhere is the answer. The man is an idiot still living in the 60's.

A charity that we volunteer for, give food to and funds, run by a friend called Caterina's Club here in Anaheim feeds thousands of children living in motels and homeless children each and every day. How many kids has Brown given a meal to? Complete and utter idiots in our government are in charge of our lives and our money. Fools keep electing them. Meanwhile, the rest of us have to find workarounds, create inventions and contribute to and start programs that actually make a difference in the lives of the citizens of this country. Hapless politicians be damned. Anyone expecting and waiting for the government to get up off their collective asses at a city, county, state or federal level and actually and effectively help people, are going to be waiting a long damn time. This shamefully, includes our Vets. The sooner people realize that we are virtually on our own, the better.