Unions???

ryanmickG said:
What about for the love of boobies? Everyone likes them.
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if-you-cant-say-anything-funny-show-boobies.jpg
 
Just a few comments. I flew for Delta from 1987 to 2003. Was 44 when I got hired and at the time was the oldest pilot ever hired by Delta. Joined ALPA after I got off probation. Did not have to pay the initiation fee as I had been a transportation sector union member before. 1966, Brotherhood of Fireman & Locomotive Engineers, working for the Erie-Lackawanna Railroad after I graduated and was waiting to go to USAF pilot training.

Don't know how it is now, but I never thought the issue of whether or not a carrier was unionized or not was a show stopper in whether or not a pilot accepted employment. Back then the FIRST airline that offered you a job was the BEST airline. So union membership for me was no big deal.

Shortly after our first contract negotiations I came to the conclusion that I had better become involved with what exactly the union was doing with my dues money and how they were or were not doing what I wanted. So I started attending meetings, asking questions, learning who was who, and in generally getting smart about what DALPA was all about. No, I never ran for, nor aspired to any union office, but I sure as hell kept tabs on who was doing what, with whom, and for what reason. After all these union reps were on MY dollar!

It became quickly obvious that ALPA, like most unions is a top down organization. We elected a rep from our base (DFW) who voted for a rep for DALPA who voted at ALPA. One layer over another, will little real input from the rank and file. We didn't even (at the time) get to vote on our contracts, the MEC (made up of base reps) did that. Later we got membership ratification. Remember at Delta, ATL was the HQ of both the airline and the union, and the biggest base so what they said was what happened.

I was a DFW which was the "radical base" which was always rocking the boat, making waves, and generally being a pain in the wazoo to the guys that wanted to keep the status quo. DFW was where the movement to have membership ratification started and to be honest, we voted NO on all the contracts that came up for vote after that. The still got ratified, which was OK as at least we had memrat and got to at least vote.

The moral of all this is, a union is no better nor worse than what it's members make it. But keep in mind the union bosses want as little interference from the rank and file as possible. In many instances all they want is the dues money. Sorry, but that's a fact, JACK!

Unions do good things, ALPA aeromedical was the most important thing to me that my dues paid for. Fortunately I never needed it, but it was there and a lot did. Duty rigs in contracts is another. (both of these I mentioned before)

I supported the union with my dues, assessments, and a thing we called the furlough/emergency relief fund which was a VOLUNTARY contribution to a fund that helped our furloughed pilots. While I worked for Delta they had their first ever furlough. There were some that did not join but still paid what is called "germane expenses" costs which are the part of dues that supposedly go to getting and enforcing the contract, something that applied to all pilots, union or otherwise. Interestingly enough there were some pilots, who while not joining the union, paid FULL dues. For whatever reason they just did not believe in unions, but they felt obligated to pay for what they did.

One of the more contentious issues was our relationship with the AFL/CIO and the issue of political endorsements. While I was at Delta, ALPA never made a specific endorsement for President. ALPA did have a PAC, which I contributed to simply because I wanted a voice in what they did with it.

As I mentioned earlier, late in my career, DALPA started shutting out retirees from participating in the DALPA forums on the ALPA boards. I guess they just didn't want people with a vast amount of corporate knowledge gumming up the works by telling others about it. To this day I cannot participate on the ALPA forums because DALPA still keeps retirees off.

Then they (DALPA) during the bankruptcy negotiated the defined benefit retirement out of existence, and in the process turned what existed of it for the current retirees over to the PBGC and the rest is history, again as I mentioned earlier.

Bottom line is, as I said before, a union is only as good as it's members make it. If you join, stay involved, and if you don't, stop whining about what happens to you. Remember, once you retire, you're on your own.

Do I regret joining the union, no. Do I have respect for them, no. They did for their members what was necessary for them to stay in existence, and unfortunately for many retirees, they got the short end of the stick.

So that's my .02 (adjusted for inflation) on the subject.....at least for now.

I will say I did enjoy participating. I walked the informational picket lines several times, even when I was on a layover, which I thought was ironic as I was getting paid by Delta and picketing at the same time. Even joined a Comair (I think it was them) in CVG when I was on a layover there. So there were some fun times....
 
There.

Thy shall join your union and stay active in it.
If you're not in a union, don't whine, you cooked your own soup, now eat it

As adult as I could muster...

:hiya:
 
ROFCIBC said:
Just a few comments. I flew for Delta from 1987 to 2003. Was 44 when I got hired and at the time was the oldest pilot ever hired by Delta. Joined ALPA after I got off probation. Did not have to pay the initiation fee as I had been a transportation sector union member before. 1966, Brotherhood of Fireman & Locomotive Engineers, working for the Erie-Lackawanna Railroad after I graduated and was waiting to go to USAF pilot training.

Don't know how it is now, but I never thought the issue of whether or not a carrier was unionized or not was a show stopper in whether or not a pilot accepted employment. Back then the FIRST airline that offered you a job was the BEST airline. So union membership for me was no big deal.

Shortly after our first contract negotiations I came to the conclusion that I had better become involved with what exactly the union was doing with my dues money and how they were or were not doing what I wanted. So I started attending meetings, asking questions, learning who was who, and in generally getting smart about what DALPA was all about. No, I never ran for, nor aspired to any union office, but I sure as hell kept tabs on who was doing what, with whom, and for what reason. After all these union reps were on MY dollar!

It became quickly obvious that ALPA, like most unions is a top down organization. We elected a rep from our base (DFW) who voted for a rep for DALPA who voted at ALPA. One layer over another, will little real input from the rank and file. We didn't even (at the time) get to vote on our contracts, the MEC (made up of base reps) did that. Later we got membership ratification. Remember at Delta, ATL was the HQ of both the airline and the union, and the biggest base so what they said was what happened.

I was a DFW which was the "radical base" which was always rocking the boat, making waves, and generally being a pain in the wazoo to the guys that wanted to keep the status quo. DFW was where the movement to have membership ratification started and to be honest, we voted NO on all the contracts that came up for vote after that. The still got ratified, which was OK as at least we had memrat and got to at least vote.

The moral of all this is, a union is no better nor worse than what it's members make it. But keep in mind the union bosses want as little interference from the rank and file as possible. In many instances all they want is the dues money. Sorry, but that's a fact, JACK!

Unions do good things, ALPA aeromedical was the most important thing to me that my dues paid for. Fortunately I never needed it, but it was there and a lot did. Duty rigs in contracts is another. (both of these I mentioned before)

I supported the union with my dues, assessments, and a thing we called the furlough/emergency relief fund which was a VOLUNTARY contribution to a fund that helped our furloughed pilots. While I worked for Delta they had their first ever furlough. There were some that did not join but still paid what is called "germane expenses" costs which are the part of dues that supposedly go to getting and enforcing the contract, something that applied to all pilots, union or otherwise. Interestingly enough there were some pilots, who while not joining the union, paid FULL dues. For whatever reason they just did not believe in unions, but they felt obligated to pay for what they did.

One of the more contentious issues was our relationship with the AFL/CIO and the issue of political endorsements. While I was at Delta, ALPA never made a specific endorsement for President. ALPA did have a PAC, which I contributed to simply because I wanted a voice in what they did with it.

As I mentioned earlier, late in my career, DALPA started shutting out retirees from participating in the DALPA forums on the ALPA boards. I guess they just didn't want people with a vast amount of corporate knowledge gumming up the works by telling others about it. To this day I cannot participate on the ALPA forums because DALPA still keeps retirees off.

Then they (DALPA) during the bankruptcy negotiated the defined benefit retirement out of existence, and in the process turned what existed of it for the current retirees over to the PBGC and the rest is history, again as I mentioned earlier.

Bottom line is, as I said before, a union is only as good as it's members make it. If you join, stay involved, and if you don't, stop whining about what happens to you. Remember, once you retire, you're on your own.

Do I regret joining the union, no. Do I have respect for them, no. They did for their members what was necessary for them to stay in existence, and unfortunately for many retirees, they got the short end of the stick.

So that's my .02 (adjusted for inflation) on the subject.....at least for now.

I will say I did enjoy participating. I walked the informational picket lines several times, even when I was on a layover, which I thought was ironic as I was getting paid by Delta and picketing at the same time. Even joined a Comair (I think it was them) in CVG when I was on a layover there. So there were some fun times....
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Its great to hear that view of it, especially from someone who has been there done that. Defintely start to show how they are needed but can't be trusted themselves. Its funny that it is a bit contradictory
 
ROFCIBC said:
Just a few comments. I flew for Delta from 1987 to 2003. Was 44 when I got hired and at the time was the oldest pilot ever hired by Delta. Joined ALPA after I got off probation. Did not have to pay the initiation fee as I had been a transportation sector union member before. 1966, Brotherhood of Fireman & Locomotive Engineers, working for the Erie-Lackawanna Railroad after I graduated and was waiting to go to USAF pilot training..
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Erie-Lackawanna Railroad, where is this located?
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Yes, that's what an agency shop is. You aren't forced to be a member of the union, and the company can't be forced to only hire union members, but if you choose to work for a company that has agency shop negotiated into its labor agreement, then you have to pay the agency shop fee, which is usually the same or very close to dues. That is not the same thing as a closed shop.
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Whatever. Call it what you want. When employment decisions involve a third party, and employment is terminated when an employee chooses not to enter into a relationship with that third party, it's functionally a closed shop.
 
O&M said:
Whatever. Call it what you want. When employment decisions involve a third party, and employment is terminated when an employee chooses not to enter into a relationship with that third party, it's functionally a closed shop.
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If you choose only to narrow things down to certain criteria which serve only to re validate your point. I guess some would argue it's a layman's view, but it isn't a layman's world.
 
O&M said:
Whatever. Call it what you want. When employment decisions involve a third party, and employment is terminated when an employee chooses not to enter into a relationship with that third party, it's functionally a closed shop.
Click to expand...

This may be news to you, but words actually have definitions. You can't make them mean whatever you want them to mean. That's especially true when it comes to legal terms.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
This may be news to you, but words actually have definitions. You can't make them mean whatever you want them to mean. That's especially true when it comes to legal terms.
Click to expand...

"Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean its a grey area."
 
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