Unions???

Doug Taylor said:
Something I learned from being an old man.

Some people just can't be convinced even of universal thruths like the earth revolving around the sun.

He needs to have an epiphany and only then will he understand, but until then, drink beer, laugh too often and raise those flaps in the flare.
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Doug,

When did you become and "old man"? That is scary because when I first met you many years ago you called me and "old man".

To avoid thread creep (remember that) I have been reading through this one and feel I may be able to contribute as a "been there, done that, got the tee shirt" kind of person.

I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly of a union, notably ALPA and it's Delta part DALPA.

The "good" is putting their motto "Schedule With Safety" (or I seem to remember it that way). The contractual work rules (duty rigs) were light years better than the FAR's, although in some ways not as good as the USAF. (different discussion for a different forum) ALPA aeromedical is another "good". They knew what to do, how to do it and did a wonderful job of helping pilots who had medical issues that threatened their job.

The "bad"...I never felt the union was set up to give the "rank and file" a real voice in what took place "at the top". Too many layers between me, who PAID for it, and the guy at the top who SPENT it. Kind of like government, or 'gasp' a corporation.

The "ugly"....when DALPA threw the Delta pilot retirees under the bus by shifting (shafting maybe?) our retirement to the PBGC. I got 50 cents on the dollar, five years later up to 62 cents. Another "ugly"....when DALPA decided they didn't want us old pharts on their pristine forums, messing the place up with factual material of days past, things the current regime just didn't want the rank and file to know.

There is more, a lot more, and maybe I'll put some more posts up. As long as it doesn't conflict with my travels to NASCAR, IRL, and NHRA events! Woo Hoo!
 
ROFCIBC said:
Doug,

When did you become and "old man"? That is scary because when I first met you many years ago you called me and "old man".

To avoid thread creep (remember that) I have been reading through this one and feel I may be able to contribute as a "been there, done that, got the tee shirt" kind of person.

I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly of a union, notably ALPA and it's Delta part DALPA.

The "good" is putting their motto "Schedule With Safety" (or I seem to remember it that way). The contractual work rules (duty rigs) were light years better than the FAR's, although in some ways not as good as the USAF. (different discussion for a different forum) ALPA aeromedical is another "good". They knew what to do, how to do it and did a wonderful job of helping pilots who had medical issues that threatened their job.

The "bad"...I never felt the union was set up to give the "rank and file" a real voice in what took place "at the top". Too many layers between me, who PAID for it, and the guy at the top who SPENT it. Kind of like government, or 'gasp' a corporation.

The "ugly"....when DALPA threw the Delta pilot retirees under the bus by shifting (shafting maybe?) our retirement to the PBGC. I got 50 cents on the dollar, five years later up to 62 cents. Another "ugly"....when DALPA decided they didn't want us old pharts on their pristine forums, messing the place up with factual material of days past, things the current regime just didn't want the rank and file to know.

There is more, a lot more, and maybe I'll put some more posts up. As long as it doesn't conflict with my travels to NASCAR, IRL, and NHRA events! Woo Hoo!
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How you doing Jon? Long time, partner! Id love to hear more on this.
 
ROFCIBC said:
Doug,

When did you become and "old man"? That is scary because when I first met you many years ago you called me and "old man".

To avoid thread creep (remember that) I have been reading through this one and feel I may be able to contribute as a "been there, done that, got the tee shirt" kind of person.

I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly of a union, notably ALPA and it's Delta part DALPA.

The "good" is putting their motto "Schedule With Safety" (or I seem to remember it that way). The contractual work rules (duty rigs) were light years better than the FAR's, although in some ways not as good as the USAF. (different discussion for a different forum) ALPA aeromedical is another "good". They knew what to do, how to do it and did a wonderful job of helping pilots who had medical issues that threatened their job.

The "bad"...I never felt the union was set up to give the "rank and file" a real voice in what took place "at the top". Too many layers between me, who PAID for it, and the guy at the top who SPENT it. Kind of like government, or 'gasp' a corporation.

The "ugly"....when DALPA threw the Delta pilot retirees under the bus by shifting (shafting maybe?) our retirement to the PBGC. I got 50 cents on the dollar, five years later up to 62 cents. Another "ugly"....when DALPA decided they didn't want us old pharts on their pristine forums, messing the place up with factual material of days past, things the current regime just didn't want the rank and file to know.

There is more, a lot more, and maybe I'll put some more posts up. As long as it doesn't conflict with my travels to NASCAR, IRL, and NHRA events! Woo Hoo!
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Sounds about right..
 
WacoFan said:
The entire point of my post (that you found so disturbing) and my previous statement (which Bumblebee found so offensive) was to simply point out that no matter what you want, or how you want to be perceived, it is all going to boil down to numbers and your time and what I (or others) pay for it is simply a commodity.
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No matter how you justify it in your mind, it is offensive, your view of people is offensive... you may be demonstrating this so that people understand their value to their employer, but that is offensive too. You give a great example as to why the great equalizer of the not so free "free market" is not equitable.
 
Bumblebee said:
No matter how you justify it in your mind, it is offensive, your view of people is offensive... you may be demonstrating this so that people understand their value to their employer, but that is offensive too. You give a great example as to why the great equalizer of the not so free "free market" is not equitable.
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I still think Waco's post has provided an excellent viewpoint behind the curtain of the employer/ employee relationship. It's painful for the first moment to realize that someone could be so in-compassionate, and free of all regard for other people and still be allowed to reproduce, however there is a benefit in getting such information directly from a person claiming to employ human beings:

Arguments such as "If you're not on the top of the food chain, you're food" indicate the need for people to have representation and settle their disagreements with long and expensive litigation against their employers. It may not yield immediate results, but the long term effect is that inhumane business is driven out the door and loses in the long run.

If I worked for ALPA or any other union in this country, I would take excerpts from Waco's posts and use them as full fledged selling tools. It's this attitude, which I claim to be aiding in the creation of bleeding heart liberals who seek government intervention and control at every turn. If your enemy is not capable of rational thought or capable of recognizing how their statements affect people, the law and a liberal judge may beat some common sense into them.

The ultimate question is: When your employees have unionized, morale has brought your product or service to it's knees and you go Bankrupt (they have effectively taken you off your high horse in being superior to them), will you have enough money stashed away to stay home and whine about having lost your business, or will you revert to going back to work.......... for someone who ... well... hates Unions... haha.

This thread should be mandatory reading for people who work for Unions and are involved in getting new members.
 
ROFCIBC said:
Doug,

When did you become and "old man"? That is scary because when I first met you many years ago you called me and "old man".

To avoid thread creep (remember that) I have been reading through this one and feel I may be able to contribute as a "been there, done that, got the tee shirt" kind of person.

I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly of a union, notably ALPA and it's Delta part DALPA.

The "good" is putting their motto "Schedule With Safety" (or I seem to remember it that way). The contractual work rules (duty rigs) were light years better than the FAR's, although in some ways not as good as the USAF. (different discussion for a different forum) ALPA aeromedical is another "good". They knew what to do, how to do it and did a wonderful job of helping pilots who had medical issues that threatened their job.

The "bad"...I never felt the union was set up to give the "rank and file" a real voice in what took place "at the top". Too many layers between me, who PAID for it, and the guy at the top who SPENT it. Kind of like government, or 'gasp' a corporation.

The "ugly"....when DALPA threw the Delta pilot retirees under the bus by shifting (shafting maybe?) our retirement to the PBGC. I got 50 cents on the dollar, five years later up to 62 cents. Another "ugly"....when DALPA decided they didn't want us old pharts on their pristine forums, messing the place up with factual material of days past, things the current regime just didn't want the rank and file to know.

There is more, a lot more, and maybe I'll put some more posts up. As long as it doesn't conflict with my travels to NASCAR, IRL, and NHRA events! Woo Hoo!
Click to expand...


You sound like a guy with a lot of great experience and stories in the industry and though I speak for myself I am sure we would all like to hear more of them and learn. COME AROUND MORE!
 
Bumblebee said:
No matter how you justify it in your mind, it is offensive, your view of people is offensive... you may be demonstrating this so that people understand their value to their employer, but that is offensive too. You give a great example as to why the great equalizer of the not so free "free market" is not equitable.
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He is just telling you how it is. If someone is offended by what he said, I don't really see how they function in the world.

truth.jpg
 
just because that is how it is doesn't make it right.
mojo6911 said:
He is just telling you how it is. If someone is offended by what he said, I don't really see how they function in the world.
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Thank goodness those of us who value human beings more than a quart of oil don't really mind if you understand how we function in the world...
 
Bumblebee said:
just because that is how it is doesn't make it right.
Thank goodness those of us who value human beings more than a quart of oil don't really mind if you understand how we function in the world...
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I never said I agreed with him, I said he is telling you how he feels, truthfully. I would prefer him to do that rather than just sugarcoat it. He has said a lot more offensive things on this website.
 
mojo6911 said:
I never said I agreed with him, I said he is telling you how he feels, truthfully. I would prefer him to do that rather than just sugarcoat it. He has said a lot more offensive things on this website.
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I know he is being truthful about his feelings, and the concept is offensive. I'm not saying he offended me.
 
Tram said:
Part 121 without a union of some sort is just stupid..
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Why do you call it stupid. I am non union and get far more than I ever had in any union shop I worked for. All I got from Teamsters 264 was a knife in the back with a twist..

I have almost 2 weeks off in a row every month
3 weeks of vacation
Sick leave with no BS
Open access to the owner anytime
Company paid lodging in base with car (no need for a crash pad or car)
Good Heathcare PPO for next to nothing.
 
Bandit_Driver said:
Why do you call it stupid. I am non union and get far more than I ever had in any union shop I worked for. All I got from Teamsters 264 was a knife in the back with a twist..

I have almost 2 weeks off in a row every month
3 weeks of vacation
Sick leave with no BS
Open access to the owner anytime
Company paid lodging in base with car (no need for a crash pad or car)
Good Heathcare PPO for next to nothing.
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Who do you work for?
 
Bandit_Driver said:
Why do you call it stupid. I am non union and get far more than I ever had in any union shop I worked for. All I got from Teamsters 264 was a knife in the back with a twist..

I have almost 2 weeks off in a row every month
3 weeks of vacation
Sick leave with no BS
Open access to the owner anytime
Company paid lodging in base with car (no need for a crash pad or car)
Good Heathcare PPO for next to nothing.
Click to expand...

Because while the unions are not the end all be all savior, I am fairly critical of them, they do provide some things that keep the average pilot from being an indentured servant..

I'll second Pilotforhire587's question, who do you work for?

Pilotforhire587 said:
Who do you work for?
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I'm going to hazard a guess and say it's not an airline..
 
I get the distinct feeling that people scan my post looking for things to be offended at rather than understand what I'm really saying. That's fine. I tried. 414 read the part about the food chain, but what he apparently failed to comprehend was the part immediately following that. The core idea was that you need to look out for number one. That was all. Unbelievably poor comprehension.
 
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