Unions???

dasleben said:
Was that really necessary? I'm not taking any of this personally; don't try to make it personal. I may not agree with you guys on politics, but I'll buy the first round at NJC. Not necessary to get heated about this and start throwing insults around.

Gonzo: I appreciate the insight into running your businesses (seriously).
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Very well, I'll buy the second and then we'll thump chests or whatever it is guys do to bond. Not all libertarians are corporate mouth pieces, just a lot of them. I'm divided on whether or not I believe the so-called "FairTax" (another libtertarian baby) is in fact fair though. Material available says it is, other material says it isn't.

Ron Paul, for example, is not a corporate mouthpiece. Sure, I would probably be a slave or a raider in a Mad Maxesque gasoline gang if he ever came to power and implemented his ideas but at least he is up front about that.
 
jtrain609 said:
And with the right deductions no private citizen should be paying much in the way of taxes. I figure those that complain about the tax system the most are those that have spent the least amount of time figuring out how to leverage their position.
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ROFL! Wow! You're really reaching to come up with that one.
 
dasleben said:
...yeah.

Please raise your hand if you've flown the line for at least one non-union carrier, and can actually tell people what it's like.

*raises hand*

There is an unnecessary amount of hyperbole in this thread.
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Seriously?
 
dasleben said:
Showing up for work does not give us the inherent right to steer the ship.
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No one is asking to steer the ship. That's not what unions do. We negotiate for improved working conditions. I've never spent any time negotiating for the company's business plan. That's their business, and I'm happy to let them deal with it. I'll just negotiate for my pay, benefits, work rules, and job security. The rest of the business is up to them, and I'll just show up and do my best at my own job.
 
BobDDuck said:
I'm guessing that with all the talk recently of 250 hour pilots (again) people are forgetting that not all of us rolled off the CFI ramp and right into 121 ground school.
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You didn't? :)

I'm asking because I'm seeing a bunch of guys who fly for scheduled air carriers tell everyone how awful it must be to work for a non-union non-sked. Glad I have some of you guys to tell me how crappy my job must be!
 
ATN_Pilot said:
And your post was? A little of your own medicine might give you some perspective. You aren't coming across well here, my friend. Tone it down a notch.
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Fair enough. I'm simply annoyed about being lectured about the RLA from people who don't really live it on a daily basis. Our strike vote closes on 7/13, and our union has already asked for release. While I'm not a high-level ALPA volunteer like some on this forum, I've personally experienced certification drives, decertification drives, spent the last 3 years at two different companies in direct and mediated negotiations, and now we're coming up to proffer for arbitration and a cooling-off period. So seriously... I don't appreciate a lecture on it from people who haven't done anything more than pay union dues.

That is all. Good day, folks.
 
dasleben said:
Fair enough. I'm simply annoyed about being lectured about the RLA from people who don't really live it on a daily basis. Our strike vote closes on 7/13, and our union has already asked for release. While I'm not a high-level ALPA volunteer like some on this forum, I've personally experienced certification drives, decertification drives, spent the last 3 years at two different companies in direct and mediated negotiations, and now we're coming up to proffer for arbitration and a cooling-off period. So seriously... I don't appreciate a lecture on it from people who haven't done anything more than pay union dues.

That is all. Good day, folks.
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You're making an assumption about me, one that is incorrect.

As far as the RLA discussion goes, I think the most tragic thing about it is... it is at least the devil we know. I might fantasize about reform of the RLA, but with the current environment there is no telling what kind of landmines would be put in it. The RLA, as terrible as it is, is at least well understood and is predictable.
 
dasleben said:
You didn't? :)

I'm asking because I'm seeing a bunch of guys who fly for scheduled air carriers tell everyone how awful it must be to work for a non-union non-sked. Glad I have some of you guys to tell me how crappy my job must be!
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Many of us, like you, have had jobs other than scheduled part 121 jobs.
 
I simply asked you guys to raise your hand if you've worked for a non-union carrier. Nobody in the class did. :)
 
Nark said:
I got you back Dasleban;

With the high wages and excellent work rules at every unionized airline, they have clearly made a positive mark on today's pilot.
Keep it up ALPA, Teamsters, and every other "XXPA" out there!!
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I agree they are doing a great job, I mean look at the regoinal pay scales. Well done, team!


Gonzo said:
I agree with the bold part. But FOR THE MOST PART it is the hired gun CEOs taking from the front line workers many who helped create the company.
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The front line workers also have the opportunity to become CEO and change the culture.

ATN_Pilot said:
No one is asking to steer the ship. That's not what unions do. We negotiate for improved working conditions. I've never spent any time negotiating for the company's business plan. That's their business, and I'm happy to let them deal with it. I'll just negotiate for my pay, benefits, work rules, and job security. The rest of the business is up to them, and I'll just show up and do my best at my own job.
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You realize labor is a huge part of an airlines costs, so it is trying to steer the ship (in a roundabout way), but that is the job of management (to try and get costs down). You fly the plane, they try to get you to do it for less.
 
dasleben said:
I simply asked you guys to raise your hand if you've worked for a non-union carrier. Nobody in the class did. :)
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No, you said I did nothing but pay my union dues. Which is an assumption. Which is incorrect. You know what they say about assumptions, etc etc etc.
 
pullup said:
You realize labor is a huge part of an airlines costs, so it is trying to steer the ship (in a roundabout way), but that is the job of management (to try and get costs down). You fly the plane, they try to get you to do it for less.
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Agreed. That's why we have an RLA (a law that I generally like, by the way), and we negotiate. The RLA, when administered appropriately by the NMB, provides both sides with an incentive to bargain in good faith. It's a good system that prevents management abuses, and doesn't allow unions to get out of control.
 
dasleben said:
I simply asked you guys to raise your hand if you've worked for a non-union carrier. Nobody in the class did. :)
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Aroo? Must be be phone browser is doing selective post displaying again.

I think if you had actually asked that question somewhere you would have seen a lot of hands waving. There aren't a whole bunch of sub 1000 hour guys in this conversation "telling you how it is".

And you are right... there are a bunch of non union gigs that pay well, provide good quality of life and treat their employees well. Some of them do it to keep their employees happy because they know that happy employees provide a good ROI and some of them do it to keep a union off property so they don't have to deal with that and constantly negotiate the United + 1% (or whomever was the leader during that stage of pattern bargaining) contracts that all the unionized companies had to. Instead they can offer United - 1% and let their employees think they are coming out ahead because they are saving 2% in dues dollars. The sucky thing for everybody else is that their 2% is subsidizing those non union guy's raises. Ask ASA (and now XJet) how they feel about.

And save your "I know more about the RLA than ya'll do" spiel. You're having a strike vote. Good for you. I hope it's unanimous one way or another. A lot of us have been down that road in one way shape or form. If you have a battlestar (I don't, and hope I never have to go through what it takes to get one), then sure, brag if you want, but you don't see too many guys that have them doing that.
 
ATN_Pilot said:
Agreed. That's why we have an RLA (a law that I generally like, by the way), and we negotiate. The RLA, when administered appropriately by the NMB, provides both sides with an incentive to bargain in good faith. It's a good system that prevents management abuses, and doesn't allow unions to get out of control.
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The status quo of the RLA under Bush is the new normal for any Republican president, the tea party won't have it any other way. So that is a big if: when administered properly.
 
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