Unions???
- Thread starter Pilotforhire587
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SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Don't you have any friends who fly for non-union non-sked operators? The stories that these people tell about how their companies operate are absolutely astounding. Given the leeway (no unions), managements will engage in incredibly unscrupulous behavior. Unions are necessary to protect workers and the flying public.
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
The on call for 24 hours a day forever certainly isn't something I think I would enjoy.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Not defending some of the stuff that happens in the non-sked world (good reason to have a contract on its way), but understand that it's very different from scheduled short-haul domestic flying. Sometimes the jet has to be moved at odd hours of the night long distances; no union contract will change the nature of the operations or fix disrupted circadian rhythms.
By the way, as someone who works for a non-sked airline without a contract in place, saying that everyone is flying sick on 20+ hours of duty is, quite simply, fear mongering.
By the way, as someone who works for a non-sked airline without a contract in place, saying that everyone is flying sick on 20+ hours of duty is, quite simply, fear mongering.
Gonzo
Well-Known Member
Pretty much. I'm going to stay out of this, though; lots of talk that has no basis in reality, and I don't think anything I say will convince anyone otherwise. I'm glad we're close to a contract at my current gig (I'd give details, but best not to air dirty laundry in public), but I'll say this: My favorite flying job so far was non-union. The one I hated most was union.
Minds blown.
Cape Air for the most part is a one of kind airline, and did you hate XJT because is was a union job or did you hate it because you were having to sit RSV in EWR with no end in sight.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I know a crew that spent 24 hours on duty the other day at your former company.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Cape Air was great to work for; definitely a company that didn't necessarily need a union (though it'll be interesting to see how things are after a contract is in place). I disliked XJT for my own reasons, and to be fair, the union situation had nothing to do with why I disliked it. My main point was that the non-union shop has been the best for me so far; that's not a hit on unionized carriers, of course. There are carriers that just work well without a union.
Which company is that? Current or former company?
Like I said, I won't defend some of the stuff that happens in non-sked. I was on duty 21 hours the other day, but that was because they had to deadhead me home from the other side of the world so I could go into days off. Not much you can do there. The new contract and time/duty rules will be a definite plus, but the day-to-day in this segment of the industry really isn't as bad as people think. The longest I've been on duty operating an aircraft was 18 hours, but that was with an augmented crew with 14 hours scheduled duty (a diversion extended us up to the legal maximum). While that wasn't a whole lot of fun, it's not common on my aircraft type.
I enjoy my job, overall. There are things that could definitely change for the better, but 20+ hours flying sick and being scared for your job just doesn't happen at my company. If you're sick, you're sick.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
The one that furloughed you.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
At Mesa I spent 15 hours on duty (reserve shift with a callout at the end) followed by another 4 or 5 hours doing a part 91 prop rebalance maintenance flight.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
Dunno, you'd have to ask the crew.
Jamesrw2002
Well-Known Member
Having not read the majority of this thread I want to throw in my 2 cents.
It's pretty simple why unions are important. And anyone who doesnt understand this concept is probably a rock, no offense.
Companies are in business to make money. Plain and simple. If they could get away with working people more and paying them less they would. If they could get away with hiring children and paying them 1 cent a day, they would. It would increase their bottom line. That is all a corporation thinks about, the bottom line.
I have heard people argue that if it werent for the unions people would get paid more... That is absurd! If an airline could get away with paying their pilots 5 dollars/ flight hour they would and unfortunately there are people in this industry that would take that job.
It's pretty simple why unions are important. And anyone who doesnt understand this concept is probably a rock, no offense.
Companies are in business to make money. Plain and simple. If they could get away with working people more and paying them less they would. If they could get away with hiring children and paying them 1 cent a day, they would. It would increase their bottom line. That is all a corporation thinks about, the bottom line.
I have heard people argue that if it werent for the unions people would get paid more... That is absurd! If an airline could get away with paying their pilots 5 dollars/ flight hour they would and unfortunately there are people in this industry that would take that job.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
I nominate this line for post of the year. For all the crap I've (rightfully) given James over the years (and it's been a lot of years...and a lot of crap), this is the most succinct thing I've ever seen anybody write about this issue. Ever. Like FOREVER EVER.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Could the companies do it? Sure. Could they properly staff their company and continue operations if they did?
Well, that's quite another story.
Unions work well for some companies, but not for others. I made $50,000 (not including any per diem) my first year flying 402s at the non-union shop... Definitely a company that understood that the bottom-line would be hugely affected if they couldn't crew the airplanes.
Jamesrw2002
Well-Known Member
Absolutely... if unions went away so would the standard.. you'd see wages drop like rocks. Dont fool yourself.. the reason you made that money at your current operation wasnt because of some sort of love for you as a pilot.. it was because there is a standard they have to compete with.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
And that's precisely my point. I made that kind of money at that job because they wanted to be able to retain their labor. The unions don't set the pay standard other companies must compete with, the market does.
EDIT: The competition to the company I mentioned was also non-union.
Pilotforhire587
Lycra Man
Probably the first time in the last couple of weeks I have liked what you had to say. Thanks for the input ATN.
James I completely agree with you, but as I have already explained that I need some more...
I am glad we finally got of the MAINE issue here. I am looking for more input on why unions in the 121 world are not just a good thing but a must have. Kristy, if you could offer some good quotes from those books for the sake of this arguement I would appreciate it greatly. I would love for Doug to chime in too if he doesn't mind taking a side. Lets stick to the topic guys.
dasleben
That's just, like, your opinion, man
Sounds like you already have your mind made up, bro. What more do you want, exactly?
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
You only made that money because union pilots for the past 80 years have fought so hard to uphold the value of a professional pilot, and that company would have been unable to compete in pilot recruiting if they didn't pay that wage. Take the unions out of the equation, and the value of a pilot would drop through the floor, and that $50k wage flying that 402 would be $20k, or less.
Jamesrw2002
Well-Known Member
The market eh? I know a learjet 45 FO that makes 34k a year. I know a Beechjet pilot that makes around 40 and also doubles as personal assistant to his boss, a lawyer.
I know several other situations like this...
Corporations do not give a damn about you. They know that if you wont fly, someone else will. If it werent for unions, they would walk all over pilots, you can choose to believe that, or you can choose not to. The ONLY thing that matters to them is the bottom line man.
I want to point out that probably the most prosperous time for America was when the Unions were strongest and the taxes were higher.