UND...

[Farva]

All i see is alot of whiners, seriously UND not letting you fly.....BooHoo.. Stuff happens just like in life. If you dont like it then quit. UND adding something to the checklist that you think is bogus, then quit. Making you say"Clear Left, Clear Right", bothering you, then quit. Aviation is what it is, and well professional pilots wether airline, corporate, or charter all have standardization and discipline and that is the truth. If all you do is complain about how UND sucks or how you can do it better somewhere else then it sounds like a personal problem that you wont accept and want to blame it on someone else, and maybe you should become a journalist so that it can fit your opinionistic views on how life sucks. Rant over to those who are clearly a bunch of moronic idiots.

-farv

 

[oktex88]

All i see is alot of whiners, seriously UND not letting you fly.....BooHoo.. Stuff happens just like in life. If you dont like it then quit. UND adding something to the checklist that you think is bogus, then quit. Making you say"Clear Left, Clear Right", bothering you, then quit. Aviation is what it is, and well professional pilots wether airline, corporate, or charter all have standardization and discipline and that is the truth. If all you do is complain about how UND sucks or how you can do it better somewhere else then it sounds like a personal problem that you wont accept and want to blame it on someone else, and maybe you should become a journalist so that it can fit your opinionistic views on how life sucks. Rant over to those who are clearly a bunch of moronic idiots.

-farv

Agreed.

I think a lot of people rag on UND because of its isolated location when compared to other bigger states..if UND was located in Californa I'm sure a lot of the people complaining would be praising it. Yea the location sucks but UND is really a great aviation school.

 

[FlyMan07]

I think that anyone who has had to deal with the politics within Flight Operations or Odegard will always have a negative view of the school. Until Dr. Smith is gone and there is some turnover at Flight Operations, that's just the way its going to be, though, and even that may not help. That's how many public schools/universities and offices work. To put it one way, this isn't Southwest airlines, it's one of the legacy carriers. There is no team effort, just 100+ staffers trying to outdo each other in office politics. And lets face it, no one wins, but a lot of people loose, especially the students.

In addition, a lot of people, staff and students at UND alike, are very frustrated right now. Costs are going up, contract training has been causing problems all over the board, and, all the people that have invested thousands into the program realize that they won't be getting a flying job for years. UND is an airline pilot factory. When the assembly line leads to unemployment, people are going to be pissy. Anything and everything is going to piss people off.

That being said, UND does have a lot of good things in place. Checklists and standards need to be set. This is simply because the school is so large. No one would insure the school without such safety practices.

I find the checklist comparable to checklists at FBOs....all they did was add a line to the checklist lol. In fact.. when I was flying approaches my instructor and I were doing "Before the line checklist" before UND even added it. If your on approach it just helps you clarify what needs to be done before the FAF increasing the safety of the flight.

Now that's exactly why people get mad with the checklist stuff. The checklists FBO's use are just ripped right out of the POH. At UND, on the other hand, they are ripped out of the POH, then they are modified, and modified, and modified, so that they change almost weekly. How do you prepare when the standards are constantly being changed? Heck, look at your checklist right now, then look at the online checklist trainer, and then look at your standardization manual. THEY ALL SAY DIFFERENT THINGS. Yeah, that's not got to get anyone mad, that's how the airlines do it. Yeah, right.

Also, "when I was flying approaches my instructor and I were doing "Before the line checklist" before UND even added it." That is EXACTLY whats wrong! If UND is going to set standards and checklists, they do NO GOOD unless people USE THEM. How many times do instructors say, "yeah, that's what UND says but I don't like it so lets change it." Then, when the student Unsats his checkride, its the students fault for not knowing the UND procedure.

On paper, UND has a great program and great ideas on how to run a flight ed program. Putting this in place, however, seems to be a struggle.

 

[the_dmn8tr]

I think that anyone who has had to deal with the politics within Flight Operations or Odegard will always have a negative view of the school. Until Dr. Smith is gone and there is some turnover at Flight Operations, that's just the way its going to be, though, and even that may not help. That's how many public schools/universities and offices work. To put it one way, this isn't Southwest airlines, it's one of the legacy carriers. There is no team effort, just 100+ staffers trying to outdo each other in office politics. And lets face it, no one wins, but a lot of people loose, especially the students.

In addition, a lot of people, staff and students at UND alike, are very frustrated right now. Costs are going up, contract training has been causing problems all over the board, and, all the people that have invested thousands into the program realize that they won't be getting a flying job for years. UND is an airline pilot factory. When the assembly line leads to unemployment, people are going to be pissy. Anything and everything is going to piss people off.

Do you honestly have any idea what you are talking about? Costs are down because of the contract training. Most of the people at the airport have a job BECAUSE of the the contract training. Ask most of the instructors about their moral, they will tell you they are happy to have a job. Don't lump a few bad apples into the rest of us.

Your post is exactly what Farva was talking about. You complain and complain, but I have news for you, it is their way or the highway ANYWHERE you go. My freshman year, there was a student pilot who blatantly told his friends he didn't need checklists and they were dumb. He took a plane of the side of a runway because his approach wasn't stabilized and he hadn't finished his checklist. Where is he now, he got kicked out of school for his attitude problem last year. (After getting out of aviation after the incident, something to do with telling the FAA to **** off)

Moral of the story, either learn to adapt, or learn to fail.

 

[400A]

FlyMan

The struggle you speak of comes mostly from this current generation of students. Most seem to think they know more about flying and how to teach someone to fly than the collective experience of UND. Now, I will say there are some things UND does wrong and they do it wrong because they don't have enough people who have actually "flown the line" to know they are doing it wrong. However, the majority is done correctly. Flight limitations on students, regardless of course, is a good thing. There are some real idiots out there and those limits are in place because of them.

The VFR flight limits used to be a lot less restrictive, then the current generation started coming in. Disregard for WX limits, going where they weren't supposed to go, flying in formation and bad mouthing the SOF over a FSS freq, not completing X country logs and keeping a binder of completed logs to "dummy up" their log to turn in, etc etc.

I will go out on a limb and say UND is NOT an airline pilot factory. Having standards (ie standardization) is not airline specific, it is professional flying specific. Now, the checklist design is the one thing those designing the checklists need a wakeup call on. They need to read 8900.1 from the FSIMS on the FAA website.

The complaining from most shows they have taken no interest or command of their flight training. There is absolutely NOTHING that prohibits a student from reviewing a lesson with their instructor on a day that is not solo "friendly". It isn't wasted flight time since you need the 95 some odd hours by the end of 323 anyway, that most won't have. Just because a lesson says 1.0 block doesn't mean that is all it will take or that going over that or reviewing that lesson is a bad thing. Play the system, review a past lesson, do part of the next lesson and make the next dual flight a bit shorter or get two dual flight lessons done.

If you are one the people who signed up for a flight lab at a time you knew you would no be able to make and are having trouble getting flights in, look in the mirror there is the problem.

I will continue to beat this drum, my short 6 years at UND I didn't see any of these problems untill the post 1999-2000 HS grads started coming in. The generation before came to school to learn to fly, to have a good time and accepted responsibility for their training and did what was need (ie launches at 9 pm and 6 am, not going home over breaks, flying on weekends, etc).

 

[FlyMan07]

Do you honestly have any idea what you are talking about? Costs are down because of the contract training. Most of the people at the airport have a job BECAUSE of the the contract training. Ask most of the instructors about their moral, they will tell you they are happy to have a job. Don't lump a few bad apples into the rest of us.

Your post is exactly what Farva was talking about. You complain and complain, but I have news for you, it is their way or the highway ANYWHERE you go. My freshman year, there was a student pilot who blatantly told his friends he didn't need checklists and they were dumb. He took a plane of the side of a runway because his approach wasn't stabilized and he hadn't finished his checklist. Where is he now, he got kicked out of school for his attitude problem last year. (After getting out of aviation after the incident, something to do with telling the FAA to F*** off)

Moral of the story, either learn to adapt, or learn to fail.

FlyMan

The struggle you speak of comes mostly from this current generation of students. Most seem to think they know more about flying and how to teach someone to fly than the collective experience of UND. Now, I will say there are some things UND does wrong and they do it wrong because they don't have enough people who have actually "flown the line" to know they are doing it wrong. However, the majority is done correctly. Flight limitations on students, regardless of course, is a good thing. There are some real idiots out there and those limits are in place because of them.

The VFR flight limits used to be a lot less restrictive, then the current generation started coming in. Disregard for WX limits, going where they weren't supposed to go, flying in formation and bad mouthing the SOF over a FSS freq, not completing X country logs and keeping a binder of completed logs to "dummy up" their log to turn in, etc etc.

I will go out on a limb and say UND is NOT an airline pilot factory. Having standards (ie standardization) is not airline specific, it is professional flying specific. Now, the checklist design is the one thing those designing the checklists need a wakeup call on. They need to read 8900.1 from the FSIMS on the FAA website.

The complaining from most shows they have taken no interest or command of their flight training. There is absolutely NOTHING that prohibits a student from reviewing a lesson with their instructor on a day that is not solo "friendly". It isn't wasted flight time since you need the 95 some odd hours by the end of 323 anyway, that most won't have. Just because a lesson says 1.0 block doesn't mean that is all it will take or that going over that or reviewing that lesson is a bad thing. Play the system, review a past lesson, do part of the next lesson and make the next dual flight a bit shorter or get two dual flight lessons done.

If you are one the people who signed up for a flight lab at a time you knew you would no be able to make and are having trouble getting flights in, look in the mirror there is the problem.

I will continue to beat this drum, my short 6 years at UND I didn't see any of these problems untill the post 1999-2000 HS grads started coming in. The generation before came to school to learn to fly, to have a good time and accepted responsibility for their training and did what was need (ie launches at 9 pm and 6 am, not going home over breaks, flying on weekends, etc).

Apparently the lot of you need to read my post, because you obviously did not. :dunno: Here it is again:

I think that anyone who has had to deal with the politics within Flight Operations or Odegard will always have a negative view of the school. Until Dr. Smith is gone and there is some turnover at Flight Operations, that's just the way its going to be, though, and even that may not help. That's how many public schools/universities and offices work. To put it one way, this isn't Southwest airlines, it's one of the legacy carriers. There is no team effort, just 100+ staffers trying to outdo each other in office politics. And lets face it, no one wins, but a lot of people loose, especially the students.

In addition, a lot of people, staff and students at UND alike, are very frustrated right now. Costs are going up, contract training has been causing problems all over the board, and, all the people that have invested thousands into the program realize that they won't be getting a flying job for years. UND is an airline pilot factory. When the assembly line leads to unemployment, people are going to be pissy. Anything and everything is going to piss people off.

That being said, UND does have a lot of good things in place. Checklists and standards need to be set. This is simply because the school is so large. No one would insure the school without such safety practices.


Now that's exactly why people get mad with the checklist stuff. The checklists FBO's use are just ripped right out of the POH. At UND, on the other hand, they are ripped out of the POH, then they are modified, and modified, and modified, so that they change almost weekly. How do you prepare when the standards are constantly being changed? Heck, look at your checklist right now, then look at the online checklist trainer, and then look at your standardization manual. THEY ALL SAY DIFFERENT THINGS. Yeah, that's not got to get anyone mad, that's how the airlines do it. Yeah, right.

Also, "when I was flying approaches my instructor and I were doing "Before the line checklist" before UND even added it." That is EXACTLY whats wrong! If UND is going to set standards and checklists, they do NO GOOD unless people USE THEM. How many times do instructors say, "yeah, that's what UND says but I don't like it so lets change it." Then, when the student Unsats his checkride, its the students fault for not knowing the UND procedure.

On paper, UND has a great program and great ideas on how to run a flight ed program. Putting this in place, however, seems to be a struggle.

I have no problem with the restrictions or UND polices. I use the checklists, study, and don't unsat. Sure, it frustrates me that the procedures change so much, but there's not much I can do about that.

HOWEVER, I've simply seen plenty of people screwed by this place and can understand why people are pissed and get pissy easily.

And, if UND is not an airline pilot factory, than why does it say "airline pilot training" on the top of every course and stan man? Hmm...

And, if you have a problem with the past education of new students, take it out on the government and parents, not the students. If you had gone through 13 years of school of "you don't need to memorize your times tables, just the easy ones so you can combine them to do bigger problems," and "here's your graphing calculator in the 4th grade," and "lets not teach this because it's not on the gov't regulated test," you would be in the same boat.

 

[400A]

FlyMan

I can appreciate your position, but your last paragraph is the root of the problem. These people are supposedly adults when they get to UND. Take charge, recognize your short comings and correct them. To say UND or instructors should place the blame on parents or the schools these people come from is just more buck passing and blame placing. These are the same people who will rely on automation as a crutch, pink lines as the only way to get from point A to B, etc. Part of being an adult and making it through the real world is realizing you have shortcomings, recognizing them yourself and correcting them.

If UND is putting airline pilot training on the title pages or top of pages, then something has drastically changed and for the worse. If you can, I would like to see that, scan it and post it if you can (redact the stuff that needs to be).

I will freely admit, UND was good to me and I rocked the boat A LOT in flight ops as a student and instructor. I butted heads with Dick Schultz A LOT, told Leads to F off, etc, BUT I had my ducks in a row and was sure I was in the right before I went off. UND is a great tool for learning to fly and networking, it isn't some place you can show up on your own schedule, make up your own rules and do whatever you want and expect things to going smoothly.

The tired argument of "I'm the customer and UND should bend to my will.." is just that, tired. You chose to come to UND knowing, at least you should, all the rules and limits that will excercised on you and that you will be expected to follow. Every 101 and 102 instructor preaches to students the importance of staying ahead of flying, as does every other instructor of flight course ground schools.

I would be interested in hearing an honest story of how UND has screwed anyone over.

 

[juxtapilot]

Going for the multi-quote record!

Do you honestly have any idea what you are talking about? Costs are down because of the contract training.

Current numbers do not back this up. Costs may be less than they would be without contract students, but costs are not down.

On paper, UND has a great program and great ideas on how to run a flight ed program. Putting this in place, however, seems to be a struggle.

Yep. And there are many part 141 flight schools that have found a happy medium between policy and freedoms, which will allow you to perform flights with a little more freedom or decision making. UND has changed a lot over the years, and I’m sure they have their reasons. With all the goofballs going through flight training they must find a way to keep them safe too. Perhaps they could find a way to “relax” policies a little bit in the more advanced courses which would allow for more decision making from more advanced students.

Yes because typically what you do on the ground will then be conducted in the flight lesson so teaching it in the plane is not very effective. For instance explaining how the operational characteristics of the NDB while flying under the hood is not very beneficial to the student. You will get a chance to fly in the clouds if that what your wanting to do. Go review a lesson if you have some extra cash to burn.

UND is still teaching NDB stuff? I figured they wouldn't teach that anymore because they only teach airline pilots, and airline pilots don't need to know how to use NDBs.

Why stop complaining? Its so easy for people to do. If it wasn't for UND they would have to find something else to complain about.

YEAH UND.

Yea complaining is so fun. It never leads to improvements. There are no reasons to ever identify potential issues in an organization. There are no reasons to want to improve anything.

Nah, you guys are missing the point. This thread was not started for complaining, it was started to try to sway others who are as stubborn as I am from going to UND. Just trying to get the word out. That's it.

If you can identify people who you think might not like what UND does, then you might be able to sway them away from going to UND, or at least make known the issues that you have. Keep it factual, and they might be able to make their own decision. You're not going to completely influence their decision, but at least they might have more information to use to decide whether UND is right for them. Some people DO like UND, and will continue to like UND in the future. It's just not right for some. UND works for many, and that's great. I think there are changes that could be made to make UND more appealing to more students.

You need to be more specific because you havent really had valid complaint yet... What exactly is it that you dont like? Be specific.

Ill stop with the I hate UND.

I don't see any complaints. More "hey this is what's up at UND."

I guess it's kinda pointless to even have this thread because there will be things at every university that people don't like. Even before I went to college, I've been split on whether or not I should go this route... and still am. Had I known some of those things, maybe I would've made what I thought was a better choice.

Being at UND is tolerable for me, but it isn't for others so maybe I could help them change their mind. No point in going there if you know you're gonna absolutely hate it and could not stay there for even another day for the things that I said in my original post, but maybe you didn't already know about those things. Now that you know, it could only help you make a choice that you think will be better for you in the long run.

Yes!

As an alumnus of UND, all I have to say is, although UND may have some seemingly stupid rules, in the end I learned to appreciate the level of discipline it fostered...Your training at UND is what you make of it.

Woohoo! Awesome post mokulele!

coa787,

I assume you came to UND because you want to be an airline pilot.

This is true. UND seeks to only train airline pilots.

I don't think you will like being an airline pilot.

Does anyone? *see airline pilot forum

There are other types of pilots out there besides becoming an airline pilot....

Lots, but is UND the place they should go to learn how to fly a C172 like a jet? Perhaps it's good if the C172 has a HUD. So cool OMG.

There is a difference between flying a Warrior and a RJ with people in the back. Whatever, you have fun pretending your Piper is a jet and running through the ridiculous checklist.

Man, you need to have more imagination!!!

I find the checklist comparable to checklists at FBOs....all they did was add a line to the checklist lol. In fact.. when I was flying approaches my instructor and I were doing "Before the line checklist" before UND even added it. If your on approach it just helps you clarify what needs to be done before the FAF increasing the safety of the flight.

Yeah, no. I've seen lots of checklists from lots of FBOs. Only place I've ever seen a 10 page checklist for a PA28 is at UND.

"Check right side of propeller....Shiny"
"Check Propeller Hub...............Shiny"
"Check left side of propeller......Shiny"

Rant over to those who are clearly a bunch of moronic idiots.

-farv

Woohoo topgun farv! Great contribution. Your message really came through clearly. Thanks.

I will continue to beat this drum, my short 6 years at UND I didn't see any of these problems untill the post 1999-2000 HS grads started coming in. The generation before came to school to learn to fly, to have a good time and accepted responsibility for their training and did what was need (ie launches at 9 pm and 6 am, not going home over breaks, flying on weekends, etc).

As usual lots of good points in your post. I quote this section because I think in a way you might be right, but in a way I think there might be other factors influencing the change in attitude. Only thing I would add is that, since you graduated UND, things have changed a lot. Is there anything that could have changed so much that would have led you to not be satisfied with UND? Even those that still stay over breaks, and over summers might not be happy with UND when they leave...

P.S. UND did NOT screw me over in any way. I left because I didn't like the flight training. Most of the classes were well worth the money spent.

Just some thoughts...

 

[TXaviator]

the best thing is nowdays I actually DO fly a C172 with a HUD.

EAT THAT, UND.

oh, and there's no checklist. OH NOES!

 

[AngelFuree]

Ok several points...

1) I know it might hurt some to hear this, but, gasp.....a Cessna is just like a freaking car. You don't need to have 20 page checklists. (gasp....I exaggerated, it's not really 20 pages.)

2) Costs at UND HAVE GONE UP. The person who said they're lower is full of cow dung. Flight costs may be stabilized due to the amount of flying being done, but they're not LOWER.

3) I like to think that I had success in getting my flight courses done at UND. Heck, I got done early w/ the program and worked hard to do so. HOWEVER, that will not taint my opinion of UND. I would not go there again if I knew what I know now.

Let's drop this whole emotional BS attachments we have with the school. Way too many guys in here get offended when someone talks bad about the school.

Is not the place to be if you can't put up with the myriad of restrictions and other miscellaneous crap that is associated with flying that makes you want to set yourself on fire. One if the guys on this forum that currently attends UND with me told me that I didn't know what I was missing from flying out of an FBO and not having to deal with the back and forth transmissions 'cause the Chinese guys can't understand anything 'cause they choose not to speak English and improve on it when they're with their friends. Oh, don't forget about all the restrictions like not being able to fly when the weather is fine for flying. If there is a line of rain moving in, *poof* no fly... stuff like that. Slight rambling on, but whatever. Blah blah blah, blah blah, blah bleh and blah.

Don't go to UND. I didn't listen and thought, "Oh, what the hell do you know? I can handle it." Well, I can, but it comes with a mighty price... say $150,000 or so by the time I'm finished if I stay here for four years. Not worth it. I've been thinking about leaving, and I just might do that. Hmm... don't know what else to say right now, it's been a long day, so I'll just leave it at that.

UND = part 141 school = bad. Pay as you go, fly on the side, get a useful degree, something like that. That's all I've got. Don't care what is said, that's the truth.

We told you so.

 

[AngelFuree]

the best thing is nowdays I actually DO fly a C172 with a HUD.

EAT THAT, UND.

oh, and there's no checklist. OH NOES!

Hey, some cars have HUDs too!

 

[derg]

In general, when we welcome a new user to JC and they end one of their first few posts with "Flame Away", it's generally similar to not only speeding past a policeman, you're speeding past a policeman and honking the horn.

 

[BillErvin]

In general, when we welcome a new user to JC and they end one of their first few posts with "Flame Away", it's generally similar to not only speeding past a policeman, you're speeding past a policeman and honking the horn.

:yup: Had a local butthead do that too me, plus he waved. His Radar detector wasn't working, so he didn't think I knew how fast he was going (50 in a 35).

I sure had a good time writing that ticket.:beer: Memories

 

[roundout]

the best thing is nowdays I actually DO fly a C172 with a HUD.

EAT THAT, UND.

oh, and there's no checklist. OH NOES!

safety director FAIL

 

[TXaviator]

safety director FAIL

huh? fail at what?

 

[nutz4life]

Someone want to describe why UND standards wants all C172s to takeoff with 10 degrees of flaps whether it be a normal, short, or soft takeoff? Are they really trying to simulate a BIG airlplane with the AIRLINE feel to it on lift off? :rotfl:

 

[juxtapilot]

Someone want to describe why UND standards wants all C172s to takeoff with 10 degrees of flaps whether it be a normal, short, or soft takeoff? Are they really trying to simulate a BIG airlplane with the AIRLINE feel to it on lift off? :rotfl:

Probably to comply with the recommendations in the C172's new POH.

 

[Blip16]

Someone want to describe why UND standards wants all C172s to takeoff with 10 degrees of flaps whether it be a normal, short, or soft takeoff? Are they really trying to simulate a BIG airlplane with the AIRLINE feel to it on lift off? :rotfl:

um, read your POH before you make a remark that makes you look like a dumbass.......oh, wait, too late

 

[JaceTheAce]

Someone want to describe why UND standards wants all C172s to takeoff with 10 degrees of flaps whether it be a normal, short, or soft takeoff? Are they really trying to simulate a BIG airlplane with the AIRLINE feel to it on lift off? :rotfl:

Oh you've got to be kidding me!

 

[ORDFlyer85]

Someone want to describe why UND standards wants all C172s to takeoff with 10 degrees of flaps whether it be a normal, short, or soft takeoff? Are they really trying to simulate a BIG airlplane with the AIRLINE feel to it on lift off? :rotfl:

Correct me if I am wrong here, but isn't the only reason that Cessna is "recommending" 10 degrees of flaps for takeoff is for better climb performance and it reduces the stall speed about 3-4 knots ... again I might be wrong as I haven't seen a new C172 POH and haven't flown one in our fleet as of yet. I know when I began my training a couple years ago in a C172 we didn't use flaps for normal takeoffs. Maybe Cessna feels that the added stability is an extra benefit....