UND...

[TXaviator]

safety director FAIL

still waiting for your reply there chief. what exactly is a fail?

a c172 doesn't require any sort of checklist to operate.

are you saying i and my company are unsafe by operating 172's without a checklist?

please clarify.

cite examples, if able. thanks!

 

[ProudPilot]

Well the FAA does state that to operate an aircraft, you need to comply with any published documents concerning its operation. The POH or PIM being the primary thing. So the Cessna POH has a checklist in there that it states you should use. FAA says must use.

So we went ahead and copied the POH, added a few items, and got plastic covers for it. Then, oh no, the POH now states to use 10 deg flaps for all takeoffs. Well, we don't truly care, but the FAA and insurance does. So is it really that hard to takeoff with one notch of flaps and take them out with a positive rate? Nope, still good training, lower insurance premimums, and at least after a crash after takeoff we were following the POH. Maybe there's a chance it won't say Pilot Error in the summary.

If you think that not following the POH or teaching that it's a recommendation, that's really not going to get you terribly far. Go try to fly on a contract and tell the owner that you only use some parts of the POH. See who they will hire.

 

[roundout]

still waiting for your reply there chief. what exactly is a fail?

a c172 doesn't require any sort of checklist to operate.

are you saying i and my company are unsafe by operating 172's without a checklist?

please clarify.

cite examples, if able. thanks!

CHill, dude. It was a joke.

 

[nutz4life]

um, read your POH before you make a remark that makes you look like a dumbass.......oh, wait, too late

Don't have a Cessna POH, just heard a buddy tell me that.
BTW, you making that kind of remark in the end and you are a CFI...doesn't sound to be professional, I suggest you read the instructor handbook for a refresher

 

[jynxyjoe]

Don't have a Cessna POH, just heard a buddy tell me that.
BTW, you making that kind of remark in the end and you are a CFI...doesn't sound to be professional, I suggest you read the instructor handbook for a refresher

I read a few instructor handbooks. Doesn't say anything about being polite to guys on the internet. I'm sure if you give him $20-$30 an hour his volcab will improve dramatically.

 

[Blip16]

Don't have a Cessna POH, just heard a buddy tell me that.
BTW, you making that kind of remark in the end and you are a CFI...doesn't sound to be professional, I suggest you read the instructor handbook for a refresher

Welll did you consider checking the facts before you posted?

And I am sure I have those books many more times than you, I am sick of people bitching about the way und does things. If you are getting a commercial cert at und, think about this: most companies have specific ways to do things, and you do it their way. When I went through the program there was much less standardization, was it better? Debatable, do I agree 100% with the way to do things now, no; but it is how it is done now so I do it the way they want it done. Some day I am sure most students at und want to fly something big and turbine powered, those companies are not going to let you do whateber you want to fly those planes, so get used to it, it is how it is done in this industry

 

[Thunder-Robo]

Welll did you consider checking the facts before you posted?

And I am sure I have those books many more times than you, I am sick of people bitching about the way und does things. If you are getting a commercial cert at und, think about this: most companies have specific ways to do things, and you do it their way. When I went through the program there was much less standardization, was it better? Debatable, do I agree 100% with the way to do things now, no; but it is how it is done now so I do it the way they want it done. Some day I am sure most students at und want to fly something big and turbine powered, those companies are not going to let you do whateber you want to fly those planes, so get used to it, it is how it is done in this industry

To be fair, he didn't specify which model C172.... although UND only have S'....
But you pretty much summed up the rest.

 

[TXaviator]

um, read your POH before you make a remark that makes you look like a dumbass.......oh, wait, too late

Hey smartguy. The 10 deg. flaps thing is apparently a typo in the POH. Discussed in the "flaps" thread in main forum.

Just thought I'd give you the heads up so you're not disseminating inaccurate information.

 

[Blip16]

Hey smartguy. The 10 deg. flaps thing is apparently a typo in the POH. Discussed in the "flaps" thread in main forum.

Just thought I'd give you the heads up so you're not disseminating inaccurate information.

WEEEEELLLLLL;

when i picked up a 172 at the factory, that is what they said to use for takeoff.....

 

[mokulele]

still waiting for your reply there chief. what exactly is a fail?

a c172 doesn't require any sort of checklist to operate.

are you saying i and my company are unsafe by operating 172's without a checklist?

please clarify.

cite examples, if able. thanks!

Hmm. That is a very interesting statement, given the Practical Test Standards for EVERY type of airman certificate specifically mentions the use of checklists.

Perhaps on your next checkride you can tell the examiner you don't need to use your checklist...

This is the sort of lack of cockpit discipline the FAA is wanting to crack down on.

 

[AngelFuree]

This is the sort of lack of cockpit discipline the FAA is wanting to crack down on.

Yes, time to report this internet user's violation to the local FSDO.

 

[BIGRIG]

still waiting for your reply there chief. what exactly is a fail?

a c172 doesn't require any sort of checklist to operate.

are you saying i and my company are unsafe by operating 172's without a checklist?

please clarify.

cite examples, if able. thanks!

Are you for real? I was under the impression that the POH is supposed to be followed. Do you not agree with that? Where did you get the impression that YOU AND YOUR COMPANY do not have to follow it?

 

[TXaviator]

Are you for real? I was under the impression that the POH is supposed to be followed. Do you not agree with that? Where did you get the impression that YOU AND YOUR COMPANY do not have to follow it?

We do not operate contrary to procedures, placards, limitations, etc that are set forth in the POH.

Putting words in my mouth! Whoa!

 

[Blip16]

We do not operate contrary to procedures, placards, limitations, etc that are set forth in the POH.

Putting words in my mouth! Whoa!

but yet you are too good to operate w/o a checklist? I could understand operating a Champ w/o a checklist(because there isnt one), but not anything else

 

[TXaviator]

if you are interested on other professional aviators thoughts on checklists, I encourage you to read these articles by John Deakin


http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182037-1.html

http://www.avweb.com/news/pelican/182038-1.html

if youre interested to know who else shares my opinion on this matter, he is a 35,000 hour pilot and a designated pilot examiner, and can give types on 43 aircraft. maybe you can dismiss my opinion, but I'd like to see you really dismiss his.

 

[400A]

A checklist is there because we are human and make mistakes. Arguing against them because of some self proclaimed superiority is foolish. Yes, most single engine airplanes, especially fixed gear types, are very simple and very few things can kill you if you don't use them (boost pumps, lights, radios, etc).

If that is all you plan to fly the rest of your life/career, then so be it, I can't really argue for or against checklist usage. HOWEVER, if the goal is to move on to bigger equipment, checklist usage is MANDATORY not some PITA thing we do to be legal. Using a checklist is a skill and one that is blatantly obvious to be lacking in those that just don't use them and it is a impedement to a crew operation.

If you really think you won't ever miss anything and don't need a checklist, you need to take a long look in the mirror and decide if you really should be doing this, if you think that missing something that should be on a checklist is ok, just because it won't kill you, you need to do the same.

Yes, most POH checklists are jokes and are more of an obstacle than the tool they should be, that is up to the pilot/operator to make them workable, not just throw them out the window because the one in the book is useless. You shouldn't rely on how the airplane should be configured you should rely on HOW YOU ACTUALLY configured the airplane.

Simple things like landing lights can cause a lot of damage, don't retract the landing lights in a BeechJet and there is a chance you could get one or both through the motors.

 

[TXaviator]

a) i never proclaimed im superior, that was buick's comment i believe

b) i never said it would be wise/legal to NOT use a checklist in large/fast/turbine aircraft

c) nor did i say i do, or someone should, just jump into a plane and go willy-nilly flipping knobs randomly and see what happens.

you guys are so quick to get defensive when something isnt the UND way!! WOW.

you should read the articles I linked to. I am not alone in my thinking.

 

[Blip16]

a) i never proclaimed im superior, that was buick's comment i believe

b) i never said it would be wise/legal to NOT use a checklist in large/fast/turbine aircraft

c) nor did i say i do, or someone should, just jump into a plane and go willy-nilly flipping knobs randomly and see what happens.

you guys are so quick to get defensive when something isnt the UND way!! WOW.

you should read the articles I linked to. I am not alone in my thinking.

i firmly believe in doing flows in a logical manner, but then following it up with a checklist to make sure you got everything required. just ask my old part 61 students, that is how i taught it. you are saying a checklist isn't required

 

[TXaviator]

i firmly believe in doing flows in a logical manner, but then following it up with a checklist to make sure you got everything required. just ask my old part 61 students, that is how i taught it. you are saying a checklist isn't required

show me the regulation that says you must have a checklist out and being followed and I will gladly change my song and dance.

 

[400A]

a) i never proclaimed im superior, that was buick's comment i believe

b) i never said it would be wise/legal to NOT use a checklist in large/fast/turbine aircraft

c) nor did i say i do, or someone should, just jump into a plane and go willy-nilly flipping knobs randomly and see what happens.

you guys are so quick to get defensive when something isnt the UND way!! WOW.

you should read the articles I linked to. I am not alone in my thinking.

I did read the article and I think the guy is completely out to lunch, thus my comments, as they were not directed at you.

Finding one guy, who wrote 2 articles to justify a way of operation is hardly a "defense" nor is it proper justification.

Some things that are permitted by regulation (circling approaches, single engine IFR with paxs, etc) are too dangerours, some things that aren't specifically required by FAR, checklist usage, CRM usages, etc, are necessary, IMO.