UND Contract Student Injured in C172 Solo Crash at PKD

[400A]

Well, my perspective may be skewed, because if you guys feel the ARAMCO students were, for lack of a better term, "normal" than things have really gone down the crapper.

 

[oktex88]

The pushing of contract students through the system and pressuring of CFI's to sign off/pass contract students at lower standards than held for domestic students, because contract students = dollars.

This corporate culture has been reported to me directly by CFI's who where pressured to pass/sign off contract students who they didnt not feel were ready.

Do you have a copy of a memo, policy or email saying to pass contract students at lower standards?

Otherwise you are just blowing smoke and speculating.

 

[Blip16]

As for the CFI pressuring, I'll let the firsthand sources speak up if they want, but if you REALLY, REALLY think the contract students are on the same level as the domestic students, you are only deluding yourself.

i already spoke up. i have had some students who were very far behind, and i have been told i need to have them done by xxxx date, but never just drop your standards. the last one i had went over by 15 or 16 hours in 325, and i was in constant contact with the people in charge and it was approved. anything to get him done was OK, but dropping standards was NOT.

your not a CFI, you pansied out; dont speculate. if you have a chip on your shoulder about YOUR choice to attend UND, keep it to yourself. overall it is a good school (notice i didn't say great). Does UND have it's fair share of problems, yes! Are they more pronounced than other schools, YES; due to the fact there is more flying than the 3 or 4 other schools in the top 5 schools in the nation! but guess what, they all have problems. drop it already

the main problem with UND right now is the WHINY ASS STUDENTS who want everything handed to them on a f'ing silver platter. it is the current generation, Y or whatever, the ME generation. All they care about is themselves, and it should be handed to them, they shouldn't have to put in the effort. they should put in 4yrs and then have a job that pays 100K waiting for them when they are done. The school is fine, it is the students (not all of them, but a good majority of them are ruining it for everyone else)

//end rant. i am done with this forum

 

[BIGRIG]

Do you have a copy of a memo, policy or email saying to pass contract students at lower standards?

Otherwise you are just blowing smoke and speculating.

Not the first or last time our Aviator from Texas was blowing something out his.....nevermind. I am gonna believe BuickCFI on this one. By the way what are the ARAMCO guys you are referring too?

 

[BIGRIG]

i already spoke up. i have had some students who were very far behind, and i have been told i need to have them done by xxxx date, but never just drop your standards. the last one i had went over by 15 or 16 hours in 325, and i was in constant contact with the people in charge and it was approved. anything to get him done was OK, but dropping standards was NOT.

your not a CFI, you pansied out; dont speculate. if you have a chip on your shoulder about YOUR choice to attend UND, keep it to yourself. overall it is a good school (notice i didn't say great). Does UND have it's fair share of problems, yes! Are they more pronounced than other schools, YES; due to the fact there is more flying than the 3 or 4 other schools in the top 5 schools in the nation! but guess what, they all have problems. drop it already

the main problem with UND right now is the WHINY ASS STUDENTS who want everything handed to them on a f'ing silver platter. it is the current generation, Y or whatever, the ME generation. All they care about is themselves, and it should be handed to them, they shouldn't have to put in the effort. they should put in 4yrs and then have a job that pays 100K waiting for them when they are done. The school is fine, it is the students (not all of them, but a good majority of them are ruining it for everyone else)

//end rant. i am done with this forum

++++++1. Excellent post my friend. Do not leave, you are the only credible source on here for what is happening at UND in flight ops.

 

[ScoutFlyer]

Took the words right out of my fingertips. I agree with Buick 100%. Yes, the contract students are on a tight schedule and yes, the instructor staff is expected to keep up. But like Buick said, training standards are not to be lowered to meet the schedule. Perhaps more effort is required on the instructor's part to squeeze in some extra flights to build the student's proficiency...and maybe a review board is held if a student is taking a bit longer than the rest. But I can honestly say I've never been pressured to sign off on a student, contract or otherwise, on something that I didn't feel he/she was ready for.

:beer: to Buick, he knows what's up.

 

[juxtapilot]

the main problem with UND right now is the WHINY ASS STUDENTS who want everything handed to them on a f'ing silver platter. it is the current generation, Y or whatever, the ME generation. All they care about is themselves, and it should be handed to them, they shouldn't have to put in the effort. they should put in 4yrs and then have a job that pays 100K waiting for them when they are done. The school is fine, it is the students (not all of them, but a good majority of them are ruining it for everyone else)

//end rant. i am done with this forum

Aren't these whiny students becoming CFIs at UND? Is there any truth that they may not understand professionalism, and that rushing students can be done safely and professionally without lowering standards? I find it hard to believe that all of UND's CFIs aren't lowering standards to get students through. I don't find it hard to believe that some instructors feel pressure to get students through, and in doing so lower their standards. Judging from the past and the students who complain about some instructor busting them on a stage because the student was barely outside standards, then that student becoming an instructor, it doesn't take a genius to see that standards can quite easily be lowered. Since I'm not at UND, and don't have any current experiences there to base anything on, this is all where I saw UND's flight ops heading... I'm not saying that all CFIs there lower standards (I am sure many if not most don't) but there are at least a few who do don't you think?

 

[400A]

Juxta

You bring up a point, that in my opinion, shines a giant light on the crux of the problem. You say, paraphrasing, "Busting for being just outside of standards". You are either in standards or out, there really is no "just outside". As a check airmen you have discretion and the PTS has guidance on what is expected, but what you said is what almost all the students who complain the loudest "say".

If a steep turn is +/- 100 feet being 120 feet off is outside of standards, period. It goes back to this mentality that a lot students started to show when I was there and just before I left and what apparently is running rampant now. They seem to think all they have to do is a be a warm body in the seat, not crash and the lesson/stage check should be an S. When they are held to standards the crying and finger pointing begins.

This isn't unique to UND or aviation. My wife teaches at the college here in town and her students are the same way. She always has questions on the test that are from assigned readings and it is clear that questions can and will come from those readings. Without fail there is a handful of students who whine and complain about the questions being unfair and that my wife didn't "teach them".

Now, without a doubt, there are some instructors who take the "pressure" of get these students done by such and such a date as permission to lower standards, that isn't a UND problem, that is a problem with the Professionalism and Integrity of the individual instructor. What is this person going to do when WX is below mins but it is the last leg of the day and they are off after that flight?

 

[Blip16]

Now, without a doubt, there are some instructors who take the "pressure" of get these students done by such and such a date as permission to lower standards, that isn't a UND problem, that is a problem with the Professionalism and Integrity of the individual instructor. What is this person going to do when WX is below mins but it is the last leg of the day and they are off after that flight?

which is what i am afraid of. i am one of the "harder" stage pilots now because i hold standards. i don't understand how holding standards (i go by 100% PTS) is now "hard" the PTS is minimum standards. so now all these students will become instructors (and many have) and their students are worse than they were on the stage checks.....

 

[TXaviator]

By the way what are the ARAMCO guys you are referring too?

Saudi nationals sent here by the state owned oil company (i believe thats what ARAMCO is, someone correct me if im off slightly) to become fixed wing and rotary wing pilots to fly for the company.

They continually kicked my butt in soccer too. :rotfl:

 

[FlyMan07]

New Article From the Grand Forks Herald: UND: Saturday crash 'rare'
http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/133574/

The crash of a UND aircraft in Park Rapids, Minn., Saturday was an accident that university officials are stressing is relatively rare.

Over the past 10 years, the aerospace program has averaged 2.2 accidents per 100,000 hours of flight time, Flight Operations Director Al Palmer said.

The average for general aviation as a whole, he said, is about six or seven per 100,000 hours.

Accidents could involve crashes, he said, but they also encompass other accidents to aircraft structure such as a rough landing.

The National Transportation Safety Board is investigating the weekend crash of a Cessna 172S that took off near Park Rapids. Li Yang, an Air China employee studying at UND, was making a “routine cross-country solo flight,” according to the university. He was treated and released from a local hospital.

The Cessna 172S has a glass cockpit and, Palmer said, airplanes of this kind have a kind of black box that records some information. The NTSB would look at that, he said, as well as the engine to see if anything went wrong.

Initial reports show the plane took off and shortly after crashed 100 to 150 yards from the runway.

The Cessna 172S also sported an airbag system, similar to ones in cars, though it’s unclear if the airbag was deployed in the Saturday crash. UND spokesman Peter Johnson said he understood it had.

Palmer said UND’s newer aircraft all have airbags. The university, he said, fosters a “strong safety culture” that includes standardized checklists for aviation students to remember safety factors and maintenance that’s overseen by the Federal Aviation Administration.

When accidents do occur, UND has a response team that can go out and get the student or, in Saturday’s case, visit at the hospital and transport him home, Palmer said. UND also reviews its safety procedures, he said.

After the NTSB suggested that migrating geese probably caused the October 2007 crash that killed two UND aviation students, he said, the university alerted other students to be wary of migration routes in flight planning.

Palmer said he’s not sure how UND will replace the crashed Cessna 172S. Insurance adjusters would have a lot to say about whether the plane is totaled or repaired, he said. A replacement would cost about $250,000, he said.

In the short term, he said, UND may lease.

Reach Tran at (701) 780-1248; (800) 477-6572, ext. 248; or send e-mail to ttran@gfherald.com

 

[FlyMan07]

...the main problem with UND right now is the WHINY ASS STUDENTS who want everything handed to them on a f'ing silver platter. it is the current generation, Y or whatever, the ME generation. All they care about is themselves, and it should be handed to them, they shouldn't have to put in the effort. they should put in 4yrs and then have a job that pays 100K waiting for them when they are done...

I believe that every UND Aerospace tour comes with a discussion that there is no money at the end of the program for several years, and that aviation has severe ups and downs. I don't think any Commercial Avit student expects to make $100,000 after graduation. If they do, they need a reality check.

Also, I think UND is shooting themselves in the foot with the whole "everything handed to them/spoon feeding" thing. How many professors simply make a powerpoint, read it to the class, then test over it line by line? How many professors say, "this will be on the test, that stuff won't but you should know it," or "here are the test questions lets go over them BEFORE the test" ?You don't really have to learn squat to get good grades in many classes from a good number of professors these days. Is this simply due to the switch to all powerpoint style classes? I don't know, but I doubt that's how they used to do it!

Flying, you have to know everything and remember it, and you must do some of the work on your own on your own time. Sort of a new concept when you've never done that before, be it in high school or college.

 

[the_dmn8tr]

Also, I think UND is shooting themselves in the foot with the whole "everything handed to them/spoon feeding" thing. How many professors simply make a powerpoint, read it to the class, then test over it line by line? How many professors say, "this will be on the test, that stuff won't but you should know it," or "here are the test questions lets go over them BEFORE the test" ?You don't really have to learn squat to get good grades in many classes from a good number of professors these days. Is this simply due to the switch to all powerpoint style classes? I don't know, but I doubt that's how they used to do it!

Hate to break it to you, but the powerpoint method is exactly how my airline ground school was. The instructor employed the old, "Stomp" method to tell us what to know, as well as some portions of the presentations being highlighted. It still involved a LOT of studying for the systems test, but with the prep we had, we were well prepared.

 

[av8or91]

Hate to break it to you, but the powerpoint method is exactly how my airline ground school was. The instructor employed the old, "Stomp" method to tell us what to know, as well as some portions of the presentations being highlighted. It still involved a LOT of studying for the systems test, but with the prep we had, we were well prepared.

You flew for the airlines? Cool.:crazy:

 

[Blip16]

I believe that every UND Aerospace tour comes with a discussion that there is no money at the end of the program for several years, and that aviation has severe ups and downs. I don't think any Commercial Avit student expects to make $100,000 after graduation. If they do, they need a reality check.

Also, I think UND is shooting themselves in the foot with the whole "everything handed to them/spoon feeding" thing. How many professors simply make a powerpoint, read it to the class, then test over it line by line? How many professors say, "this will be on the test, that stuff won't but you should know it," or "here are the test questions lets go over them BEFORE the test" ?You don't really have to learn squat to get good grades in many classes from a good number of professors these days. Is this simply due to the switch to all powerpoint style classes? I don't know, but I doubt that's how they used to do it!

Flying, you have to know everything and remember it, and you must do some of the work on your own on your own time. Sort of a new concept when you've never done that before, be it in high school or college.

well in the last yr i have had at least 5 students like those i have just described

 

[JaceTheAce]

Hate to break it to you, but the powerpoint method is exactly how my airline ground school was. The instructor employed the old, "Stomp" method to tell us what to know, as well as some portions of the presentations being highlighted. It still involved a LOT of studying for the systems test, but with the prep we had, we were well prepared.

This was exactly how my airline was too during initial training. They let us know what to know for the tests and what not to.

 

[CATIV]

This was exactly how my airline was too during initial training. They let us know what to know for the tests and what not to.

desperate times call for desperate measures. When i was at und we did not have that many contract students, now more than half under grads are contract students.
And i am sure most of the regionals were doing the same when you were going through the initial

 

[iliketofly]

The Students here on contract have gotten MUCH better than what was here a year ago. The radio calls even have improved three times over. Not saying i know anything about teaching them as i am not an instructor. I would assume they are humans, and once they get used to the American way of learning, i am sure they are perfectly capable of learning.

 

[ProudPilot]

Those that say that contract students are a detriment are really racist. The reason I say that, they are judging the cultural differences and not the pilots.

All contract students are undergraduates. They pay tuition and some eat on campus. They all use the bus system, and many take English courses at UND. Oh, they also don't get discounts on flight time.

Contract students get preferred aircraft. This one ticks me off. No, but they do get in line first. They come to the airport at least an hour before a launch. They are ready to go, and at 30min to they are in line. I'm sorry if you went down 20min before your launch and you have to wait, but if you want to avoid that, don't get a launch between 11 and 3 like EVERYONE ELSE. Fly at 6pm, no lines, smooth air, open practice areas, and God forbid, you can keep the airplane longer if needed. Now, the debate between C172 and warriors. They are fine aircraft, both of them. The warriors we've used for a decade just fine. When you came to UND you knew you were getting a warrior, so stop complaining. We are getting more, but UND has $0 in the bank at the end of each year. If we earn more it goes back into the program. We could only by 4 C172's, and Air China bought 17 more through the foundation. So, we got all 414, 415, and AC 102's into it. We now also do 222's in it. We are working on getting everyone in it, but it takes more aircraft and if you want to go donate $280,000 we will gladly take another one, and yes, you can fly it to your hearts content.

Contract students don't try hard, I can't understand a word they're saying on the radio. Ok, this one peeves me. They have 13-15 months to do the training you're doing in 4 years. They have a 2 hr class, or 4 hour class everyday. Then they have a flight, usually a double as we pair a lot. That's 6 hours out of their day. Then they have homework and need to study, at least another 4 hours that day. Most of them skip meals and sleep to make sure they are prepped. We have to remind them of IMSAFE so they don't burn out, consistently. As far as English, many come from all over China. The first time they started speaking English it was from a Chinese teacher that had poor English, at Air China University, for 2 years. We now interview the students before they come to improve their English. It is getting much better, and they work daily when they can. Do they speak other languages at the airport? Yes. If you were in Tokyo with maybe a years worth of Japanese training, and with 20 other american students, would you speak English or Japanese with each other to figure out complex ideas like where to eat or how to fly an airplane? Japanese students usually have better english as they usually start in grade school while Chinese students are varied. They are getting better, and it's hard being in a new country with collegues and not friends, pressured to do everything 100% and not have enough time.

Lastly, Chinese students cheat. This one is a mixed bag. Their culture is to memorize as a group and pass tests with rote answers. Air China has had to work on changing that, and we REALLY have had to work on this. It is getting better, but we can't change a billion peoples way of thinking overnight because we want to. Their self confidence is as a culture, not personally. They leave UND as excellent pilots and as overall better people, just like any undergraduate. Sure UND has problems and so do students, but take responsibility over the shortcomings and fix them. Blame wars do nothing.

Rant over.

 

[juxtapilot]

Those that say that contract students are a detriment are really racist. The reason I say that, they are judging the cultural differences and not the pilots.

First line I disagree with 2 bazillion percent... I didn't read the rest of your post, because I was slightly irritated with this quote..? Are you for realz? You’re a good guy I know, but daing that’s a pretty big statement…

1) I am not racist. I get a good laugh out of having to say that.. But that'll happen.

2) I think contract students are a detriment to UND's aviation program.

3) Though the students are awesome, and work hard, UND should be focusing on their OWN students. Rushing to put students through (though it may be safe, and I'm sure in most cases it is) is a sign to me that the focus is not on UND's own students, but on the China program. UND should be rushing to put their own students through.

4) International students are a big benefit for any school. However they should be involved in the school. For the most part, UND’s contract students were not. Maybe things have changed and they are actually involved.. my second hand information says they are not.

Anyway, Chinese, Korean, Japanese… Asian students are freaking smart, and work their ass off. They might have problems with language but that’s not *that* big of a deal. If there was an Air China flight school next door to UND, I would be fine with that. But UND’s mixing them in with the general students, and the priority (from the outside looking in) seems to be the contract students. So no, I don’t like it.. But my reasoning isn’t that I don’t like Asians…