UGH..19%? why not just take 20 and call it a day?!

Hey friend, just how long have you been in the work force?
When management doesn't give you any respect you have to start to ask yourself what your going to do in a given situation.
I had this happen recently with my employer and I had to ask myself, am I a Paladin, or a hired gun?
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
well, this is my understanding of *some of it*.. some of it, i don't understand myself and someone with more mature knowledge of scopes can get into more detail...

but as it pertains to us (just the two of us, not the entire delta pilot group)...

- 19% of their now 68.5% salary, total loss of about 48.5% IF it's approved by the union.
- add 200 regional jets to the routes, means less flying for the mainline guys...
- freeze in pension for both active and retired pilots (SUCKS for the retired guys!)
- change in how vacation accrues - essentially enough that doug will lose an entire week of vacation next year (he had 3 weeks).. vacation weeks capped at 4 weeks (nothing over like other companies do)
- company has the right to get rid of vacations alltogether (ouch!)
- sick leave lowered to only 20 hrs (a year)...
- eliminated accident leave - if you get hurt on the job, your on your own sick time (ouch!!)
- aircraft category freeze moved from 24 months to 36 months.. meaning he can't switch plane types for 3 years now instead of 2.
- elimination of 401(k) contributions
- elimination of stock option plan, i think the group had asked for the stock option plan in the last scope change (when they took the 32.5% in the butt)
- per diem lowered to $1.80/duty hour, roughly about $14.40 per day on an 8 hr duty day(means he'll lose money on the eating out issue while on a trip).. i think it is currently $20-25/day based on an 8 hr duty...
- if employee moves, it has to be moving to a new base and outside of 125 miles from that base in order to get delta moving benny's (125 miles is pretty far!)
- annual buddy pass and/or travel pass usage FEE (like Tim said, i think it's $50)...meaning if you give a buddy pass, pass rider has to pay the taxes on the pass + the usage fee...
- come 2008, there would be nothing given out to survivor's except $500K in term life insurance
- no free parking for commuters

it looks like they just took out a captain for the international flights.. instead of it being 2 captains, 2 f/o's and having one of each as a relief crew, now it can be 1 captain and 3 f/o's...

contact to be amended and continued until 2010..meaning NO changes until 2010 (even if the company get back into the black and starts profitting again - that's a LONG time.

I know i missed a lot that might be more important - I just don't understand the rest of it...

can someone else take over for those?

[/ QUOTE ]


My only question is...with DL's pilots being union do they have to vote on all these changes for them to go into effect!
Or are they already law?
And lastly...if the pilots demands don't meet well with managements and the above new rules become official by the BK judge.
What recourse do the pilots have? Can they strike? What can they do to show management they have had enough and aren't going to take it up the pooper any more!

-Matthew
 
Re: Scope

[ QUOTE ]
This would be a great time for the DL pilot group to gain as much small jet flying as possible. Not sure how to define a small jet, but you guys can figure it out. Not sure how to DL is gonna get small jets as they probably have always contracted with other carriers. Not sure how dumb this makes me look since I don't know more of the details.

Anyhow. It would be great for the DL pilot group to figure out a way to secure more of the DL connection flying within their own seniority list. This is how it always should have been. Would have been better for everyone.

As the DL pilot group makes concessions in pay, they should demand as much of the small jet flying be done in house as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]good points! I like those!!
 
they have to vote! the problem is...there's no veto section for any one thing... so if they vote on this, it's all or none.

however, they have an opportunity to negotiate more...so we'll have to see if anything can be changed.
 
[ QUOTE ]
they have to vote! the problem is...there's no veto section for any one thing... so if they vote on this, it's all or none.

however, they have an opportunity to negotiate more...so we'll have to see if anything can be changed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think this is the case. Management MAY negotiate with the union, but they have zero incentive to do so; getting the absolute lowest cost structure is why they're in BK in the first place, and any willing concession from labor is NOT the absolute lowest cost structure possible. (What is the lowest? Whatever the judge decides to force upon them.) The more likely scenario is that management will tell the BK judge what they want, labor will make its case as to why management shouldn't get what it's asking for, then the BK judge will decide, and his/her decision is imposed unilaterally.

Congress really needs to do something about this bankruptcy-as-management-strategy phenomenon.
 
I will be ok as far as senority goes I have 14 1/2 years. Morale though sucks big time as anyone would guess. Being in ATL we are not going to be contracted anytime soon if ever. Our operation is to big. It will still take some time though to sort out all the exacts numbers and dates. I have had resumes out for about a week now and actually had some calls that I am going to talk with the folks about. Gotta keep all options open at this point
 
glad to hear you don't have to worry too much yet...

it's definately good to have the options open! out in the 9 to 5 world, if a company continues to poo poo on you.. there's no way a 9 to 5er would stay in those conditions without looking around for better first!

the pilots just really don't have much of a choice...leave the company & your starting at the very bottom in reserve again - ugh!!
 
Well I read my union reps the riot act yesterday, some other guy in khakis and a golf shirt and I can't remember if I called anyone any bad names, but I was assured that "It's only a wish list".

So I asked, "Hey, if you had a car for sale and someone walked up and said, 'I want your car for $25 and to sleep with your wife' you'd be insulted. You certainly wouldn't say 'oh, yuk yuk, it's only part of the negotiations process! And THIS after giving up 32.5% for you all to throw a fare sale last year is an INSULT."

After all of the old schoolers retired, I think "they" underestimated how willing the younguns are to take it to the ropes.
 
hey.. at least someone's reporting is for the most part accurate...and yes, they are stopping the retirememnt of the old execs...but i still think Gerry and the managers should take a higher percentage cut so that they match the highest paid captain...essentially "eating the same nasty soup" and hating the taste!

it gives the public a better idea of what we're dealing with...

DELTA CUTS DEEP
Domestic flights slashed along with pay, staff

By RUSSELL GRANTHAM
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 09/23/05
One week into bankruptcy court proceedings, Delta Air Lines said it is moving to become a "smaller, more formidable" airline with more international reach but fewer seats in the air over the United States — and with fewer employees.

Delta said Thursday it will shed another 7,000 to 9,000 jobs as part of a new plan to cut $3 billion in annual costs and up to 20 percent of its domestic capacity by the end of 2007. The airline also is imposing pay cuts of 7 to 10 percent on most workers and paring benefits.

"We intend to move from being an unprofitable airline today to a profitable airline in just over two years," Gerald Grinstein, the Atlanta-based airline's chief executive, said in a memo to workers Thursday.

The job cuts will come over the next two years, and up to a quarter could hit Delta's Atlanta headquarters and hub, Delta finance chief Ed Bastian told a state legislative panel Thursday. Delta has about 25,500 employees based in Atlanta and about 52,000 overall, not including subsidiaries.

The announcements follow Delta's retreat last week into Chapter 11 bankruptcy court proceedings, after ongoing losses and sky-high fuel costs eroded its cash reserves. Chapter 11 enables a company to stay in business while renegotiating debts and cutting costs under a judge's supervision.

Grinstein said Delta aims to reverse its four-year, $10 billion losing streak by boosting revenues and slashing costs to bring them in line with discounters like AirTran Airways, as well as with old-line rivals that have already restructured in Chapter 11.

As the plan plays out, experts say, customers and competitors will see a smaller Delta domestically, with fewer seats to Florida and at its Cincinnati hub. Delta will achieve such cuts mainly by switching to smaller planes rather than eliminating destinations.

Meanwhile, it will boost flying to Europe, Latin America and the Caribbean, where there is less discount competition. Delta has one of the smallest international networks of the major carriers, but it hopes to get about a third of its revenues from overseas, up from 20 percent now.

Employees will see smaller paychecks and more expensive benefits, along with fewer colleagues. Some airport and other jobs may be outsourced to contractors, industry experts say.

"Our transformation plan will be sweeping and fast-paced; it must be if we are to survive and thrive in a changing environment as a strong company in control of its own destiny," Grinstein told workers.

He said the airline also must move "quickly and aggressively" to meet the financial targets and conditions of $2.05 billion in so-called debtor-in-possession financing Delta arranged to sustain its operations in Chapter 11.

The moves mark the fourth wave of austerity moves since the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist hijackings took an industry downturn into a nose dive, especially for older airlines with high cost structures. Delta has previously shed about 23,000 jobs through attrition, early exit offers and layoffs. Late last year it negotiated pay cuts of about one-third with pilots and imposed 10 percent cuts on other workers.

Flight attendant Lisa Hunt, a nearly 20-year Delta veteran who lives in Fayetteville, said she's cutting household expenses but hopes to keep working for years. "I really love my job," she said. "It's not what it used to be, but it's still a great job to have."

Executives say prior turnaround moves were undercut by this year's dramatic increase in jet fuel prices, which are up about 90 percent.

"As distasteful as it is, it's clearly years overdue," aviation consultant Robert Mann said of the new plan.

JPMorgan analyst Jamie Baker said AirTran Airways, Delta's Atlanta rival, will benefit because Delta is cutting domestic capacity, including a 20 percent capacity cut on key Atlanta-to-Florida routes.

Of the $3 billion cost-cut target, about a third will come from pay and job cuts; a third from debt reduction and concessions from aircraft lessors and other players in Chapter 11 proceedings; and a third from changes in Delta's network. The cuts will be on top of $5 billion in annual cuts targeted in previous turnaround moves.

Delta said it will cut more than 80 jets from its current fleet by the end of 2006, reducing aircraft types from 11 to seven. Fewer aircraft types reduce training and maintenance costs.

Pay cuts for most "front-line" employees will range from 10 percent for senior flight attendants to 7 percent for mechanics, Delta said. The airline said the pay cuts, which take effect Nov. 1, won't affect employees making less than $25,000 a year.

Grinstein's pay will be cut 25 percent, while other top executives will take 15 percent cuts, Delta said.

Delta has already requested talks with its unionized pilots over new pay cuts. The airline said it wants $325 million in total annual savings from pilots, while cuts among other workers will save $605 million. Pilots are being asked for roughly 20 percent wage cuts, plus other concessions.

Delta also said it will freeze pension benefits at year's end. That means workers won't lose accrued benefits but won't build any more. The pilots' plan was frozen as part of last year's pay-cut deal, and it was replaced with a 401(k)-style plan.

Delta hasn't said if it will try to terminate its underfunded pension plans while in Chapter 11, which would save it billions in makeup payments and shift responsibility for retiree payments to the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corp. The airline has, however, indicated it will stop so-called supplemental pension payments to its best-paid retirees such as pilots and executives.

In Thursday's announcement, Delta also said it plans to cut benefits costs in other areas, such as raising employees' share for health benefits; cutting vacation, holiday and sick leave days; and charging employees and retirees $50 a year to keep their flight privileges.

The airline plans to enhance its profit-sharing program to enable "all Delta employees to share in future success from the first dollar of profitability." Under a previous program, employees didn't get profit sharing until pretax profits hit about $500 million.
 
Now I loathe cut 'n pasting, but here goes:

[ QUOTE ]
Delta Pilots Respond to Company’s Proposed Cuts
ATLANTA, Ga. — After contributing five billion dollars in last year’s concessionary agreements between the Air Line Pilots Association, International, and Delta, Delta pilots have expressed widespread dismay that the company’s proposed recovery plan seeks to impose a further massive burden on Delta’s pilots without adequate attention to relief from other sources. On top of last year’s concessions, pilots are being asked for further deeply concessionary cuts in pay, work rules and other benefits, in addition to savings from suspending the company’s required contributions to the pilots’ pension plan.



“This once great airline cannot successfully recover if the central focus of the recovery plan remains on pay and benefit cuts from the employees who made it great. Operational efficiencies and revenue enhancements must be a greater part of the plan,” states. Captain John Malone, chairman of the Delta pilots’ union. He adds, “The Delta pilots are well represented by elected representatives and a team of attorneys, financial advisors, and ALPA professionals who will work doggedly to ensure that the restructuring of Delta is viable and the burden of its recovery is carried equitably. Everyone must step up to the plate. The pilots have made historic contributions and continue to be loyal to Delta. It’s time for management to recognize the employees’ enormous previous contributions and focus real attention on the company’s suppliers, vendors and lessors, as well as efforts to enhance the revenue stream.”



Founded in 1931, ALPA represents 64,000 pilots at 41 airlines in the U.S. and Canada. Visit the ALPA website at http://www.alpa.org.


[/ QUOTE ]

(I am SO not financing another fare sale, thanks for asking though...)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hey friend, just how long have you been in the work force?
When management doesn't give you any respect you have to start to ask yourself what your going to do in a given situation.
I had this happen recently with my employer and I had to ask myself, am I a Paladin, or a hired gun?
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this was directed to me. If this is the case thanks for making an assumption that I am younger than I am or that I won the lottery and haven't worked since, but now lost all my lottery money and want to fly for a living.
I have been employed since high school, that was about 17 yrs ago. I have worked several different jobs, been in the military, gone to college (aviation degree), and have a non-aviation career. I would rather work in/around aviation, preferrably up front where all those dials and screens are. lol. Most of the jobs I have worked have shown me something consistent. Management at most levels lacks concern for the welfare of those whom they manage. I am sick of seeing companies fail and those who directly contributed, CEO's/Upper Management, receive golden parachutes. Screw them, if the company goes under they shouldn't get anymore than the company's senior pilot. If this were the case the higher-ups might have a sincere desire to see the company prosper.

My father is a retired AA capt. He flew props to 747's. The old ebb and flow which he knew is not what is happening today. Some say the era of chap 11/7 bankruptcies, with respect to the majors, began with PanAm. Surely the effect of Sept. 11 on the airlines is a factor. I still want to fly for a living but most of us would chose to fly for a salary comparable to the level of education required to fly. In Christie's post about the proposed cuts and the $/hr rate suggested, I would make as much if not more as an xray tech. That is sad. I always wanted a fall back plan in case something happened in aviation where I could not be gainfully employed. I don't want the fall back career to be my primary means of employment. True, you may not need a college degree but I am sure most here would agree that what is required to be a pilot is on the level of a graduate degree if not more.

Should I choose door #2 and things still aren't working out I do not relinquish my right to bitch and complain. Thanks.

spin2.gif
 
Doug I tell you Malone got one thing right and that is the first sentence of 2nd paragraph. You have to stop cutting from employees and focus on what the real problems are. Hell you just redid the Boston terminal a while back and I bet that wasnt done for free. Sooner or later the true workers, Rampers and Gate Agents and even mechanics, no insult to pilots but we are the ones that load and unload planes in every type of weather imaginable. We make sure you plane is in balance and fueled and clean. WE are called unskilled labor but by God not just anyone from the G.O can do a manual weight and balance on an aircraft, load and unload and pushback in 35 minutes. I promise you it takes a talented team of folks to make it happen. Last years failure to hire people during the holidays is a prime example of piss poor planning. In one day 378 ramp agents quit. I think all them had less than 90 days with the company. Our job is not for the frugile. We cut up and have fun but you will go ontime and loaded and in balance 99% of the time. Only time you wont is when its out of our control. Gerry and the gang need to realize what makes that airplane fly, so to speak, we have to load it and balance it. I know the crews are very important but its not your plane until you call to push I am responsible for the safety of the agents and plane.
Thank you for allowing me to rant.
 
...and you work outside in all sorts of weather, fast, efficiently, under duress and GE and all of the Wall Street types think it's perfectly acceptable for you to take it up the rump so they can enjoy 'shareholder value'.

I'm with ya bro! Why do you think I get bent out of shape when some smarmy jackass shows up to my website with a head full of yahoo 'book knowledge' and tries to preach about the industry and what I should be willing to accept as a professional?
smile.gif
 
I am glad to know that we are appreciated for what we do by some. What iritates me with the pilots is the very small select few look down to us and treat us with no respect and stuff. I have to words for them BITE ME. Wall Street types can do the same. Until the have wore the steel toes and hot rain gear they need to shut up.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Doug I tell you Malone got one thing right and that is the first sentence of 2nd paragraph. You have to stop cutting from employees and focus on what the real problems are. Hell you just redid the Boston terminal a while back and I bet that wasnt done for free. Sooner or later the true workers, Rampers and Gate Agents and even mechanics, no insult to pilots but we are the ones that load and unload planes in every type of weather imaginable. We make sure you plane is in balance and fueled and clean. WE are called unskilled labor but by God not just anyone from the G.O can do a manual weight and balance on an aircraft, load and unload and pushback in 35 minutes. I promise you it takes a talented team of folks to make it happen. Last years failure to hire people during the holidays is a prime example of piss poor planning. In one day 378 ramp agents quit. I think all them had less than 90 days with the company. Our job is not for the frugile. We cut up and have fun but you will go ontime and loaded and in balance 99% of the time. Only time you wont is when its out of our control. Gerry and the gang need to realize what makes that airplane fly, so to speak, we have to load it and balance it. I know the crews are very important but its not your plane until you call to push I am responsible for the safety of the agents and plane.
Thank you for allowing me to rant.

[/ QUOTE ]well put! we sure as heck know that Gerry and his Board of Directors can't make that airline work on it's own! I doubt one of them could even do the type of work you guys are doing (they'd probably attempt it and break down from exhaustion in 15 minutes!)... and i doubt even one of them could fly the sucker from JFK - LAX either...

I mean.. this is mostly a pilot site and don't think for a second that your jobs not appreciated here!
 
[ QUOTE ]
with fewer seats to Florida

[/ QUOTE ]

There's a GRRREEEAAAT idea. Cut seats to one of the few profitable markets in the U.S.

What kind of f***ing idiots run these airlines.
 
I guess it was more than a year ago that I was shouted down on this website for offering a differing perspective on the industry. With recent developments I thought it would be interesting to listen to the chatter.

Remarkably the euphemisms to managerial-employee sodomy have not yet become unfashionable. Nor have any of the old standby excuses and hair-brained remedies. Evidentally it's still Wall Street or some suit in a mahogany office.

I pondered a career in aviation, but the attitudes of the people involved in the profession was one of the main factors in my decision to persue another line of work. I met some cool corp pilots, but most of the airline pilots were babies. I couldn't hold my nose tight enough to be around such negativity, self-pity, and entitlement.

I regret the difficulties you all are having. However I'm amazed at the ongoing vitriol and complete delusion from reality. While you're still preeching the 100 million dollar solution (management comp) to a multi-billion dollar problem and the virtures of raising ticket prices, the world and the industry are changing and adapting to the new environment. The ch11 by DAL does nothing to address the issue of over-capacity. Baring a miracle, they will gasp and wheeze for a few years before being liquidated.

[ QUOTE ]
Why do you think I get bent out of shape when some smarmy jackass shows up to my website with a head full of yahoo 'book knowledge' and tries to preach about the industry ...?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because the truth hurts. And I'm sure my comments probably rub some of you the wrong way. But maybe, just maybe, you should possibly consider the alternative and work towards making the best out of reality. Best of luck.
 
"I pondered a career in aviation, but the attitudes of the people involved in the profession was one of the main factors in my decision to persue another line of work. I couldn't hold my nose tight enough to be around such negativity, self-pity, and entitlement"

Thanks...you did us all a favor. Keep staying away.
 
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