UGH..19%? why not just take 20 and call it a day?!

Oil prices must play a big role in th bancrupcy airlines. Acording to this
website, a barrel of crude oil cost approx. $64.
A barrel ~42 gal.

Regardless, last night Bill O'Riley said the national avg for gas is $3. That is for car fuel, not Jet A. He also said that if it is $3 a gallon, then a barrel should be ~$90. There is something wrong with the picture, b/c oil is about $64 a barrel.

Enough with my rant about oil.

Hopefully, nobody on this website will loose their job.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Hopefully, nobody on this website will loose their job.

[/ QUOTE ]
[grammar police mode]

Well if they do they could always tighten it back up.
grin.gif


[/g.p.m.]
 
[ QUOTE ]
Your Negotiating Committee received a formal proposal from management on September 12, 2005. This is a comprehensive, deeply concessionary package that includes proposed changes in numerous sections of our PWA. Management placed the value of their proposed pilot concessions at $325,000,000 per year.
--
MANAGEMENT'S SUMMARY OF DELTA'S PROPOSED CHANGES TO THE PILOT WORKING AGREEMENT

September 12, 2005

The following proposals are not represented or intended to be an exhaustive listing of all the changes that may be submitted to the Association by the Company for consideration during the course of negotiations.
(Note: All cites are to latest incorporation documents)

Section 1 - Scope

· Section 1 B. 17. c. Redefine permitted aircraft type to permit 200 79-
seat jets
· Section 1 E. and F. Delete required minimum flying, planned percentages and minimum international flying
· Section 1 H. Delete poison pill
· Section 1 J. Delete furlough provisions

Section 3 - Compensation

· Section 3 A. 5. Minutes under on rotation basis
(Aggregate for entire rotation - greater of scheduled block time or actual block time)
· Section 3 B. Reduce composite hourly rates by 19.5%,
establish rate for 100-seat jets
($88.93 Captain/$60.74 F/O year 12, $82.26 Captain/$44.01 F/O year 2)
· Section 3 C. and D. Delete international and night pay
· Section 3 H. Improve profit sharing plan to provide 15% payout at first dollar and 20% on pre-tax income over $1.5B; delete stock option plan
Section 5 - Lodging and Expenses

· Section 5 B. 1. & 2. Establish per diem at $1.80 domestic and
$2.05 international

Section 6 - Relocation

· Section 6 Modify relocation provisions to provide for paid move only if pilot moves to his new base
(Within 125 miles of the new base; in addition, Company will pay a lump sum of $1000 in lieu of paying for house hunting, rental car, etc.)

Section 7 - Vacation

· Section 7 A. 5. Change value of vacation day to 2:45 hours
· Section 7 B. 1. a. Eliminate fifth and sixth weeks of vacation and change
rate of accrual
(Year 1 - 8, 2 weeks/Year 9 - 15, 3 weeks/Year 16 and up, 4 weeks)
· Section 7 F. 1. Company may proffer to liquidate vacation
(Similar to clause in Letter #44)

Section 9 - Miscellaneous Flying

· Section 9 B. 2. Remove pay protection when administrative pilot flies open time

Section 12 - Hours of Service

· Section 12 A. 15. Reduce release time to 15 minutes
· Section 12 A. 17. Relief crew may be two first officers
· Section 12 A. 19. b. 1) Reduce report time to one hour for Hawaii flights
· Section 12 D. Change duty time limitations
(Report 0600-1759, 13:30 hour duty day/Report
1800-0559, 12:00 hour duty day)
· Section 12 H. and J. Delete duty period average
· Section 12 I. Increase duty period minimum to 3:00
· Section 12 K. Delete duty period credit
· Section 12 L. 1. Reduce rotation credit to one for four
· Section 12 M. 1. & 2. Modify application of credit rules
(Essentially, no pay guarantee for a rotation value as it is constructed - just the greater of, on a rotation basis, the rotation credit, sum of DPMs or total block time)

Section 14 - Sick Leave

· Section 14 C. Delete accident leave
(For an injury on duty - only sick leave available)
· Section 14 E. 1. a. and b. Establish sick leave benefit that provides full pay/credit for the first 20 hours of sick leave and 60% pay and full credit for hours used thereafter; establish 60 hour supplemental bank
(The supplemental bank can only be used once in a pilot's career, and would equate to raising a pilot to full pay for a period of approximately 2 months)

Section 21 - Furlough and Recall

· Section 21 B. 3. Reduce furlough pay
(To a maximum pay of 3 months pay for a pilot with over 6 years of longevity)
· Section 21 B. 8. and 10. Eliminate scheduling restrictions when pilots on furlough

Section 22 - Filling of Vacancies

· Section 22 A. 19. Delete TLV
· Section 22 C. Modify PBS staffing formula to reduce
position requirement
(Allows company to operate at 95% of formula requirement
without a need to pay protect any pilots)
· Section 22 G. 1. Increase category freeze from 24 to 36 months
· Section 22 G. 4. First Officers in Delta 100 seat operation may only
bid to Delta 100 seat Captain positions

Section 23 - Scheduling

· Section 23 N. & O. Reorder open time coverage steps
· Section 23 S. 2. a. 1) Allow Company to assign reserve to ALV plus 15
(Reserve pilot not considered full until ALV +15 hours)
· Section 23 S. 11. and 12. Eliminate payback days if reserve green slips on X-day
· Section 23 U. 3. Reduce IA premium pay from double pay to one
and one-half pay


Section 25 - Medical, Dental, Optional Life and Accidental Insurance Benefits

· Section 25 Pilots who retire after September 1, 2005 will have access to retiree healthcare at 100% of cost
(After retirement the pilot must pay entire cost of healthcare plan selected - no company provided healthcare postretirement)

Section 26 - Retirement, Basic Life Insurance, Disability and Survivor Benefits

· Section 26 J. 5. Hard freeze DB plan effective December 31, 2005
· Section 26 L. 1. and 2. Eliminate 401k contributions
· D & S Plan Amend D & S Plan to change eligibility requirements and limit period of time pilot is eligible for disability
(After 2 years on disability a pilot must meet the Social Security definition
of disabled to be eligible - essentially unable to function)
· D & S Plan Effective January 1, 2008, discontinue survivor benefits and replace with $500,000 term life insurance

Section 28 - Duration

· Section 28 A. 1. Extend duration of agreement by one year
(to December 31, 2010)

Letters of Agreement

· Letter of Agreement 44 Extend duration of LOA 44 to July 1, 2006
· Letter of Agreement 45 Extend duration of LOA 45 to July 1, 2006
and eliminate Association's ability to unilaterally
terminate
· Letter of Agreement 47 Extend duration of 2005 CRAF LOA to December 31, 2010

Note: Several items were omitted by the Company from their summary. These include:
Allow an annual pass usage fee.
Not allow free parking at flight attendant satellite bases for commuting pilots.



[/ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

Care to explain all that in laymans terms?

-Matthew
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The company's chief executive, Gerald Grinstein, will take a 25 percent pay cut and all other executives will take a 15 percent pay cut.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, encouraging that everybody is sharing in the pain.....

[/ QUOTE ]
Management isn't sharing in it enough. Labor shouldn't be forced to take cuts larger than management is taking.

So what's the deal with the 100 seat operation? EMB-190s at mainline? What's up with allowing 100-seat FOs to only bid for 100-seat CA? Danger, Will Robinson: looks like they're integrating the Z-scale into mainline operations.
 
I bet it has to do with training! less training expenses if your not changing aircraft types.
 
Doug and Kristie, I feel so bad for you and the rest of the pilots out there who worked their tail off to get where they are. Most people get sent to jail when they steal. This kind of sh&t leads to major personal stress, and stress in the cockpit is a bad thing. Maybe things will work out, but I feel that the worst is yet to come. You and Doug ever thought about starting up a small island charter? I hope the workers come out on top for a change. I would hate to see this website become a forum for why not to be a pilot.
 
well, this is my understanding of *some of it*.. some of it, i don't understand myself and someone with more mature knowledge of scopes can get into more detail...

but as it pertains to us (just the two of us, not the entire delta pilot group)...

- 19% of their now 68.5% salary, total loss of about 48.5% IF it's approved by the union.
- add 200 regional jets to the routes, means less flying for the mainline guys...
- freeze in pension for both active and retired pilots (SUCKS for the retired guys!)
- change in how vacation accrues - essentially enough that doug will lose an entire week of vacation next year (he had 3 weeks).. vacation weeks capped at 4 weeks (nothing over like other companies do)
- company has the right to get rid of vacations alltogether (ouch!)
- sick leave lowered to only 20 hrs (a year)...
- eliminated accident leave - if you get hurt on the job, your on your own sick time (ouch!!)
- aircraft category freeze moved from 24 months to 36 months.. meaning he can't switch plane types for 3 years now instead of 2.
- elimination of 401(k) contributions
- elimination of stock option plan, i think the group had asked for the stock option plan in the last scope change (when they took the 32.5% in the butt)
- per diem lowered to $1.80/duty hour, roughly about $14.40 per day on an 8 hr duty day(means he'll lose money on the eating out issue while on a trip).. i think it is currently $20-25/day based on an 8 hr duty...
- if employee moves, it has to be moving to a new base and outside of 125 miles from that base in order to get delta moving benny's (125 miles is pretty far!)
- annual buddy pass and/or travel pass usage FEE (like Tim said, i think it's $50)...meaning if you give a buddy pass, pass rider has to pay the taxes on the pass + the usage fee...
- come 2008, there would be nothing given out to survivor's except $500K in term life insurance
- no free parking for commuters

it looks like they just took out a captain for the international flights.. instead of it being 2 captains, 2 f/o's and having one of each as a relief crew, now it can be 1 captain and 3 f/o's...

contact to be amended and continued until 2010..meaning NO changes until 2010 (even if the company get back into the black and starts profitting again - that's a LONG time.

I know i missed a lot that might be more important - I just don't understand the rest of it...

can someone else take over for those?
 
Even though it sucks at least he has a job still. But you know its bad when Branson wants to build his own refinery.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The company's chief executive, Gerald Grinstein, will take a 25 percent pay cut and all other executives will take a 15 percent pay cut.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, encouraging that everybody is sharing in the pain.....

[/ QUOTE ]
Management isn't sharing in it enough. Labor shouldn't be forced to take cuts larger than management is taking.

[/ QUOTE ] that's what i think too.. 25% of $500K is what, down to $375K.. still more than the top captain would be making! I think he should be lowering it down to whatever hte top captain would be making!! that's about fair!

oh - and give up those retirement benefits just like everyone else! the captain of the ship should eat the same nasty soup as the rest of the crew!

and only 9% or 15% for management? we know they make over $100K as it is!!
 
[ QUOTE ]
Even though it sucks at least he has a job still.

[/ QUOTE ]yea.. we knew someone would say that at some point.. i think he's getting that from a lot of people actually...still not fun to hear it!
banghead.gif


that's like saying "oohh, you have cancer? at least you've got a chance of beating it with all the new technology now a days!" doesn't make the cancer patient feel any better.

I know you mean well, so don't worry bout it!
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]


contact to be amended and continued until 2010..meaning NO changes until 2010 (even if the company get back into the black and starts profitting again - that's a LONG time.



[/ QUOTE ]

Out of all that stuff that just sucks, I think this one sticks out the most to me.

Employer: Times are hard right now and we need you to take a pay cut so we can stay in business.

Employee: OK, if that is what has to be done... I'm a team player so whatever to keep us in business.

Employer: Oh and by the way, if we do well again in the future we aren't going to give you your original pay back.

Did I miss anything there?
 
This is depressing.
It really makes me question my goals. When I can make more working as a radiologic technologist than a capt/fo of a major airline it saddens me. Also makes me angry. There is so much gouging going on in all aspects of business and government I want to vomit.
Sooner or later the masses will rise.
 
that's what happened last time - before they got their pay raise in, i think, was it 2000? I'd see it as being no different this time around - but that's just me!

this information isn't supposed to put you into a depressed mode.. it's supposed to inform you as to how this stuff works, so your prepared if it ever happens to you (hopefully not)...

it's already happened to 2 other airlines, now 2 more are infected, it might not change till they're all infected with the BK bug...it seems to me that being an airline pilot just isn't stable anymore and hasn't been for like 5 years now (like most jobs, i suppose - most comparable to the fall of hte dot com's) and that being informed is what's going to make you different than the guy your sitting next to in the cockpit KWIM? if you want to head in this direction, then by all means - do...just keep in mind that this is all cyclical!! what goes down, comes up...

I always have my "optimism" face turned on brighter than my "pessimism" face. it just sounds as though i'm being pessimistic sometimes but i think that's just realism peaking it's head out
grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
hmmm that's where my "price gouging" question comes into play! whatcha wanna bet??

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not so sure about price gouging on the part of oil companies. World oil supply is as tight as a drum right now. I found it notable that OPEC is mulling over producing flat out, with no quotas. If they pump straight out and are still unable to meet world demand, well, prices will go high and stay there. It is interesting that OPEC spare capacity has been dwindling over the past year. Saudi Arabia's spare capacity has fallen (since they are using it to put more barels on the market) and yet the price of crude still goes up and up and up.

With Katrina doing damage to oil rigs and refineries, and Rita about to do the same (to what degree, I don't know), any disruption in production will be instantly felt with the market being so tight. I think GOM produces some 5% of US domestic production, but with supply being used up almost as soon as it is brought to market, any shock is felt right away. Kind of like living paycheck to paycheck with no savings cushion - anything happens to that income and you are ruined.
 
Scope

This would be a great time for the DL pilot group to gain as much small jet flying as possible. Not sure how to define a small jet, but you guys can figure it out. Not sure how to DL is gonna get small jets as they probably have always contracted with other carriers. Not sure how dumb this makes me look since I don't know more of the details.

Anyhow. It would be great for the DL pilot group to figure out a way to secure more of the DL connection flying within their own seniority list. This is how it always should have been. Would have been better for everyone.

As the DL pilot group makes concessions in pay, they should demand as much of the small jet flying be done in house as possible.
 
[ QUOTE ]
This is depressing.
It really makes me question my goals. When I can make more working as a radiologic technologist than a capt/fo of a major airline it saddens me. Also makes me angry. There is so much gouging going on in all aspects of business and government I want to vomit.
Sooner or later the masses will rise.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no need to be angry. Disappointed perhaps but not angry. It sounds like you are early into your career, with not a lot invested yet. You are in the happy position of being able to take a long hard look at the profession and decide "It's not worth it" or "Yeah I still want to do it". But be warned. If you go for what's behind door number 2, you forever forfeit your right to complain about it later.
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is depressing.
It really makes me question my goals. When I can make more working as a radiologic technologist than a capt/fo of a major airline it saddens me. Also makes me angry. There is so much gouging going on in all aspects of business and government I want to vomit.
Sooner or later the masses will rise.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no need to be angry. Disappointed perhaps but not angry. It sounds like you are early into your career, with not a lot invested yet. You are in the happy position of being able to take a long hard look at the profession and decide "It's not worth it" or "Yeah I still want to do it". But be warned. If you go for what's behind door number 2, you forever forfeit your right to complain about it later.

[/ QUOTE ]

He does NOT forefit his right to complain! If anything he EARNS it!
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Even though it sucks at least he has a job still.

[/ QUOTE ]yea.. we knew someone would say that at some point.. i think he's getting that from a lot of people actually...still not fun to hear it!
banghead.gif


that's like saying "oohh, you have cancer? at least you've got a chance of beating it with all the new technology now a days!" doesn't make the cancer patient feel any better.

I know you mean well, so don't worry bout it!
grin.gif


[/ QUOTE ]


Or like saying..."hey at least he died doing what he loved!"

-Matthew
 
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