Twin Rates

[elmetal]

To get one college lab credit just to be finished with college. I would have done the 6 hour at a cheaper price if offered. Did mine in 10 hours for $900 guaranteed plus $300 examiner's fee in 2004 just for the record here though.

10 hours of multi with no sim time? That's a great deal... Unless it was the instructor in the backseat with 2 students type deal.

even then, it's cheap

 

[splash]

10 hours of multi with no sim time? That's a great deal... Unless it was the instructor in the backseat with 2 students type deal.

even then, it's cheap

My bad, 8.1 multi time to be exact (1 hour check ride included). No sim time. No two students. It was in Dallas, TX.

 

[elmetal]

My bad, 8.1 multi time to be exact (1 hour check ride included). No sim time. No two students. It was in Dallas, TX.

dang that's cheaper than 172's in florida...

then again it was 6 years ago

 

[splash]

yep, it was my original attempt to the OP to target market, price now is another topic. It was in a beech travel air 95.

 

[Blackhawk]

I think you are assuming that an MEI can't teach someone to be proficient pilot in "quick" 9-10 hours. Up "in the air" is not a place to teach things like checklist items, flows, systems and procedures. I've finished a Private Multi add-on in 6 hours, the guy spend days learning all the material that I provided to him and flew to commercial standards. It comes down to preparation; this is also a Seneca, it's a baby twin compared to some twins out there used for training. I have never signed off someone who I don't trust to fly my kid around, it's not going to start now... or ever.

I also don't feel that in the air is the best place to teach. Can I teach somone to pass a private MEL in 6 hours? Probably, but I won't. We just had a 310 crash nearby killing 5 people on board. We'll wait for the final NTSB report, but the whispers I hear is that the PIC was over his head with this airplane. Probably had a quick MEL transition.
For my students:
1. They get PCATD time first. I am not going to waste their time in a 310 finding out that their version of "able to shoot an ILS to minimums" and mine are different. I tell them ahead of time that they should be able to shoot an ILS to minimums in a HP complex airplane on a consistent basis prior to the course. If they need the HP/Complex endorsement we need to budget more time.
2. Same with engine cuts. Prior to engine failures in the airplane they must be able to do it quickly and accurately in the PCATD.
3. We do a night flight as part of their training. Not required, but they get it. I don't want their first night flight in a twin to be without a CFI.
4. In addition to being able to shoot a single engine ILS to minimums they will shoot a single engine VOR/DME approach. Yeah, in a real situation they should try to find an ILS, but that is not always an option around here within single engine fuel range. Also most twins have SE service ceilings below the MEAs around here. If an engine dies they are probably diverting to the nearest airport, ILS or no ILS. I don't want their first SE VOR approach to be on their own with kids on board. I also try to put them into some bad situations with difficult approaches in the PCATD.
5. They will have a flight at maximum gross weight with sand bags on board.
My goal is not to get someone through their check ride. My goal is to never hear of someone in an NTSB report. They day they walk out the door they can purchase a twin and get themselves (and their pax), in a really bad situation.

 

[ryan1234]

I also don't feel that in the air is the best place to teach. Can I teach somone to pass a private MEL in 6 hours? Probably, but I won't. We just had a 310 crash nearby killing 5 people on board. We'll wait for the final NTSB report, but the whispers I hear is that the PIC was over his head with this airplane. Probably had a quick MEL transition.
For my students:
1. They get PCATD time first. I am not going to waste their time in a 310 finding out that their version of "able to shoot an ILS to minimums" and mine are different. I tell them ahead of time that they should be able to shoot an ILS to minimums in a HP complex airplane on a consistent basis prior to the course. If they need the HP/Complex endorsement we need to budget more time.
2. Same with engine cuts. Prior to engine failures in the airplane they must be able to do it quickly and accurately in the PCATD.
3. We do a night flight as part of their training. Not required, but they get it. I don't want their first night flight in a twin to be without a CFI.
4. In addition to being able to shoot a single engine ILS to minimums they will shoot a single engine VOR/DME approach. Yeah, in a real situation they should try to find an ILS, but that is not always an option around here within single engine fuel range. Also most twins have SE service ceilings below the MEAs around here. If an engine dies they are probably diverting to the nearest airport, ILS or no ILS. I don't want their first SE VOR approach to be on their own with kids on board. I also try to put them into some bad situations with difficult approaches in the PCATD.
5. They will have a flight at maximum gross weight with sand bags on board.
My goal is not to get someone through their check ride. My goal is to never hear of someone in an NTSB report. They day they walk out the door they can purchase a twin and get themselves (and their pax), in a really bad situation.

My thing is this.... not only a 6 hour Multi Add-on BS... but what about the 15 PIC MEI requirement... honestly.. .how much experience could anyone possibly have to instruct someone after 15 hours in the airplane with hardly any total ME time? The cycle starts over again... MEI with no experience giving the guy with more money than brains instruction.... that guy goes out and gets a 421, Baron, or what have you... then he goes loads up his family and all their crap... takes off into an overcast... and....A lot of ME crash stories started this way.

 

[Douglas]

Wait wuh? We are down to six hour add-ons now? I thought we were talking about 10-12 hr courses as being short.

I've done a few students in the 10-12 hour range, and that is the shortest I would ever go. Most are higher.

 

[Blackhawk]

Wait wuh? We are down to six hour add-ons now? I thought we were talking about 10-12 hr courses as being short.

I've done a few students in the 10-12 hour range, and that is the shortest I would ever go. Most are higher.

Unfortunately there are places that guarantee it in 5 hours. I refuse to compete with them- I tell people at least 10 hours in a 310, probably more. I may lose out on potential clients, but I sleep well at night.

 

[Douglas]

in a 310,

And that is a real twin. A real next step.

Our place had bunch of different 310s before our Aztec. I did most of mine in a Baron, but only have taught in a seminole. IMO, aircraft below that "step-up" don't get applicants ready for what they could/will be flying commercially.

I wish more places offered a plane like that. (Twin Cessna, Baron, etc)

 

[Easton14]

I found a good deal in Atlanta(FTY)...1972 Seneca with dual Garmin 430's..$110/dry per hr...did the 5 hr checkout. Building time this summer.

www.fultonaviation.com

 

[jrh]

My goal is not to get someone through their check ride. My goal is to never hear of someone in an NTSB report.

I wish all instructors approached their job this way.

A couple months ago I talked to a customer of ours who purchased a Mooney Bravo. He hired an instructor who specializes in Mooneys to do the transition training. The instructor mentioned he had signed off 37 clients for their instrument ratings over the years (most of which were in high performance aircraft). Out of those 37, two were later involved in fatal CFIT accidents. Now there's a sobering thought.

Even in my own teaching, I've had two customers involved in accidents. Thankfully both were nothing more than bent metal and bruised egos. One was a customer who did his private pilot training elsewhere. Not long after starting his instrument training with me he had a prop strike while landing in a crosswind. I had noticed his marginal crosswind landing skills, but never pushed him hard to spend time practicing with me. After the prop strike incident, I wondered if I shouldn't have been more blunt with him about his need for improvement.

The other incident was a guy who did his private pilot training with me, who I'd say was actually one of my best customers ever, both from a stick 'n rudder and judgment standpoint. He bought a Citabria, got a quick tailwheel endorsement from his dad (a cropduster and CFI) in 3 or 4 hours, then ended up losing control in a crosswind a few weeks later. He walked away from it, but the plane needed a new prop, engine, wings, and vertical stabilizer.

I've always taken teaching seriously, but personally knowing people like this takes it to another level.

 

[Gajre539]

I wish all instructors approached their job this way.

Agreed!

 

[metroman3]

I'm a CFII/MEI and I'd like to get your feedback on a few items related to multi engine costs.

1- I'm making a Twin Comanche available for instruction and time building. Is the hourly rate competitive enough to attract students?

2- Website. What's good and what needs improvement? flycrosswind.com

3- Location. I'll fly nationwide to do instruction, but is this a key selling point nowadays?

many thanks!

 

[MFT1Air]

I'm a CFII/MEI and I'd like to get your feedback on a few items related to multi engine costs.

1- I'm making a Twin Comanche available for instruction and time building. Is the hourly rate competitive enough to attract students?

2- Website. What's good and what needs improvement? flycrosswind.com

3- Location. I'll fly nationwide to do instruction, but is this a key selling point nowadays?

many thanks!

1. The rate is attractive to students.

2. I like the website; presently, I see nothing to improve.

3. I think it would be a selling point; can't say if it'll by KEY! I'm sure many from around YOUR area would be jumping at the price (It's twice as much here in the Houston area.)

 

[mshunter]

I'm a CFII/MEI and I'd like to get your feedback on a few items related to multi engine costs.

1- I'm making a Twin Comanche available for instruction and time building. Is the hourly rate competitive enough to attract students?

2- Website. What's good and what needs improvement? flycrosswind.com

3- Location. I'll fly nationwide to do instruction, but is this a key selling point nowadays?

many thanks!

I think that airplane is too nice to muck up in a training enviroment. But this has to go IMHO. In all honesty, who cares?

550 flights underlying class B airspace

And if your the only guy who works this operation, change the about section fro "John" to "I" or "me."

I guess I'm nit-picking your website, because it's a whole bunch nicer than what I could do. I'd love to get some time in your airplane. I love Twin Comanches. And with all the goodies yours has. Nice airplane!

 

[Autothrust Blue]

1)private single 2)multi private 3)multi instrument (did most of the training in the single but then right before the checkride for a few hours we got thrown into a PA-44 to prepare for the checkride) 4)multi commercial with single add-on.

This is the sequence I did. Private-SEL, instrument training in a single, then MEL then instrument, then Commercial MEL...currently endorsed for the add-on SEL. I think it's an interesting way to do it. Not that you're employable with a fresh commercial, but if someone's got a twin for me to fly, I'm there. :rotfl:

At the local operator - operator, singular - twin time is almost prohibitively expensive. (The machine hardly ever flies; as a result, when it does fly there's a mechanical glitch about 45% of the time after flight.) I went away to do the Commercial MEL (two week course) because I wanted, and got, immersion. That said, others' mileage may vary.

 

[z987k]

I'm a CFII/MEI and I'd like to get your feedback on a few items related to multi engine costs.

1- I'm making a Twin Comanche available for instruction and time building. Is the hourly rate competitive enough to attract students?

2- Website. What's good and what needs improvement? flycrosswind.com

3- Location. I'll fly nationwide to do instruction, but is this a key selling point nowadays?

many thanks!

$100/hr even dry is very very attractive. A 172 wet rents from 120/hr at the airport I work at.

 

[aloft]

Things are gonna start to get real interesting when nobody can get multi time anymore.

 

[z987k]

Things are gonna start to get real interesting when nobody can get multi time anymore.

 

[Nihon_Ni]

What is the average rental rate of a twin these days? I have been trying to attract twin students and nothing seems to work. Our twin is a Seneca I that rents for $199/hour and MEI rate is $40 ($10 for the flight school and $30 for me). I worked out a deal with the Chief Pilot and Owner to offer a discount on the dual rate by 50% for a while in an attempt to get more twin students and got zero multi students.

Here's an idea you may try instead of discounting your instructional rate. I used this when I had a twin on lease-back, but unfortunately a CFI crashed my plane before I could see if it worked.

Contact all of the schools pilots and tell them you'll give them 30 minutes of free twin rental & instruction for each student they refer to you who completes a 10 hr block of training. That actually works out to be less than the discount you were giving, and it harnesses the entire population of pilots to drum up business for you. (An enterprising pilot could get his whole ME training for free just by finding 20 students for you.) Additionally, if someone has 30 mins of free flight time, you can suggest he uses it to get his flight review if he expands it to at least an hour. All of this amounts to more business for you and a good deal for your students.