Try this one....

[jonnyb]

You're sitting in your Falcon, on the ramp at a small non-radar airport ready to receive your IFR departure clearance. The controller reads a clearance as follows:

"Falcon N900EX, you're cleared to the Van Nuys airport as filed. Climb and maintain 16 thousand. Departure frequency 134.8. Squawk 1714."

You get taxi clearance and when approaching the departure end of the runway, tower clears you for take off. The question is: What do you do? How do you depart?

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Well, I'd depart on the runway...

Seriously, I'd comply with any published departure procedure (listed in the AFD, if applicable), before proceeding on course.

Since it's a non-radar airport, I filed a route that isn't dependant upon radar vectors - most likely direct to a nearby NAVAID, fix or airway. Since I've been cleared "as filed", I'd head on my way!!

 

[stuckingfk]

No idea but I'll try.

Climb runway heading till in controlled airspace, contact departure when ATC tells you, then cleared to Van Nuys as filed.

I am sure it wouldn't be long to be in radar contact flying a Falcon.

Something else I thought of....you could fly the missed for terrain clearance then contact departure or fly the departure procedure if the airport had one.

 

[jonnyb]

Ok, good answers, but Lloyd helped narrow it down. The real question is: Fly the published DP, or climb to a "safe" altitude and proceed direct to your first planned waypoint?

 

[mtsu_av8er]

Well, the DP should give some guidance on when you're at a "safe" altitude. As long as you're following the DP to the letter, you should be safe.

 

[SteveC]

Here's mine without looking anything up:

If there's a DP, fly it. If no DP (and you can meet climb minimums), runway heading until 400' AGL then turn to your first fix.

 

[jonnyb]

Ok, I agreed with Steve on this. Flying the DP would be the safest and most logical way to depart. However, there shouldn't be any guess work. That's why IFR is so easy.

We should always know exactly what we're doing given a certain phase of flight.

So, in this situation, it can't be either or; it has to be one or the other. What I would want to know is, what is ATC expecting me to do? The tower, Center etc.

The correct answer to the question is to query ground control or the tower prior to departure and clarify what it is they're expecting you to do. The clearance I gave in the first post is too vague. Clarification must be obtained to insure uniformity. Any thoughts......................??

 

[Guest]

Press F7 2 times and push joystick throttles all the way up.
Then press g and F6 2 times again .

 

[SteveC]

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I agreed with Steve on this. Flying the DP would be the safest and most logical way to depart. However, there shouldn't be any guess work. That's why IFR is so easy.

We should always know exactly what we're doing given a certain phase of flight.

So, in this situation, it can't be either or; it has to be one or the other. What I would want to know is, what is ATC expecting me to do? The tower, Center etc.

The correct answer to the question is to query ground control or the tower prior to departure and clarify what it is they're expecting you to do. The clearance I gave in the first post is too vague. Clarification must be obtained to insure uniformity. Any thoughts......................??

[/ QUOTE ]

I can tell you how we do it at our uncontrolled field. We have a GCO to talk to the approach controller (at a nearby airport) that controls airspace above us. No Departure Procedure published for our airport (this is Michigan, after all). If he has traffic in the area, or anticipates some, he will issue the clearance with something like "...enter controlled airspace heading XXX..." If the airspace is clear, we will get a clearance very similar to what you posted: "cleared to YYY as filed, climb and maintain 3,000 feet, call me airborne". In this case we climb to at least 400' AGL, then turn direct to our first fix. (If I remember the DP requirements right, there is no DP issued as long as there are no obstacles in the plane's flight path assuming crossing the departure threshold at 50 feet (?) and climbing at a predetermined rate up to 400 feet AGL before any turns are made. The planes that I'm flying easily beat the required climb rate, and we're way above whatever the threshold crossing height is, so I don't remember the exact specs right off the top of my head)

Since the controller doesn't have responsibility for our terrain avoidance until we reach controlled airspace the only thing that he really cares about is what general location we'll show up on his scope, and what direction we'll be heading. No other need to clarify how we get there since missing the towers is our responsibility and he knows what we're going to do if we suffer lost communications (proceed per our clearance to our first filed fix, then....).

Now when you add the Control Tower into the picture (not specified in your first scenario) you may have a different situation. Typically the tower operator is going to coordinate with the radar controller for the area, and issue DP or heading instructions for you. Maybe, though, there are times with no other traffic in the area that the same general scenario (of our uncontrolled field above) would apply? Maybe they don't care (for traffic avoidance reasons) how you get started on your way and leave it up to you?

Rhetorical question: As long as ATC is sure you're not going to run into any other IFR traffic, why would they need to know (or care for that matter) how you are going to depart?

 

[jonnyb]

The point is, one needs to verify with ATC. If you depart on the DP and turn left and the controller(s) were expecting you to turn right on course, there is a problem. Of course, the pilot is held responsible. Although most of the time ATC does an excellent job, controllers make assumptions and sometimes give too little information. It's our job as pilots to make SURE we're not only doing the right thing but to ensure we're on the same page as ATC.