Instrument ODPs

[GADD45B]

Say, you are departing a runway with a departure procedure from a towered airport without radar. You IFR clearance is: runway heading radar vectors then some close VOR. But this is different from the published ODP. What is the correct procedure in this situation?

From AIM: ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC.

 

[DE727UPS]

Follow the radar vector clearance. If you aren't comfortable with it then let them know you want to follow the ODP.

 

[ppragman]

Say, you are departing a runway with a departure procedure from a towered airport without radar. You IFR clearance is: runway heading radar vectors then some close VOR. But this is different from the published ODP. What is the correct procedure in this situation?

From AIM: ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC.

To be clear, the "correct" procedure is the clearance issued you. You were "assigned" radar vectors. So, "fly runway heading, radar vectors Someclose VOR." They're expecting you to fly RV and you would not be following that clearance if you didn't. The radar vectors give you the appropriate obstacle clearance.

If you didn't feel comfortable with RV, or you wanted to practice flying an ODP, just ask them and they'll give it to you.

 

[GADD45B]

Ok, the only question in the back of my mind is the issue of lost comms given that assigned clearance -- If I'm flying rwy hdg but lost comms before actually getting those radar vectors.

 

[MikeD]

Ok, the only question in the back of my mind is the issue of lost comms given that assigned clearance -- If I'm flying rwy hdg but lost comms before actually getting those radar vectors.

Fly the ODP if IMC and transition to your flight plan route. If you regain VMC at some point and can safely remain that way to descend and land at an airport, do so.

 

[ppragman]

Ok, the only question in the back of my mind is the issue of lost comms given that assigned clearance -- If I'm flying rwy hdg but lost comms before actually getting those radar vectors.

So, let's say you're told, "Fly Rwy Heading, RV FIXIE, then AF, maintain 10,000, expect FL280 10 minutes after departure."

What do you do? That seems pretty easy, once you figure out that you're NORDO though, it may be impossible to join the ODP, or you may lose it after a few RVs, so I'd probably just go direct to FIXIE at this point. That's where ATC expects me to go. If you need the ODP you're probably not goign to be assigned RVs, but you could theoretically transition to it, but if you don't have that pulled up, or you're way off it, that it could be difficult. You might have to think on your feet a little bit.

A good example of this would be someplace I used to fly. If you're in KEUG and you're departing so late that the tower is closed (which used to be a thing, maybe they're open 24 hours now, I don't know), and you want to fly up to Portland and in an ancient caravan that doesn't have GPS, you might have a route something like this (which was my afternoon route for the year I worked there)

KEUG EUG V481 CVO V495 UBG KPDX, and let's say they clear you "On departure Fly runway heading, expect radar vectors to join V481 then as filed, climb and maintain 7,000, departure frequency is seattle center on 123.45, squawk 1234"

The idea being that you fly up to Newburg, if you're VMC you can break out and fly a visual to RW3, but if not you're VMC, you're still set up to do RVs to one of the 2 ILSs to the west or the east in Portland.

Let's say, for instance, that you takeoff to the North in Eugene, and immediately lose radio communications, what does that mean you do?

well, the ODP says at 1200 then make a left turn direct the EUG VOR and climb in the hold to get above MEA before continuing on course. I would suspect, that if you did this, all hell would break lose at center, because an airplane that was "kind of pointed in the direction they were supposed to go just went crazy ivan back to the VOR." @NovemberEcho what say you?

I'd reckon that the "best" course of action in that case would be to turn to join V481 once you realized you were NORDO, and continue the climb, but I'm out of the game.

 

[///AMG]

Eugene is a good example of the SA you need to have about terrain in the local airport environment. Plenty of other good ones. But ultimately if you are NORDO and IMC, go to the place you know doesn't have terrain you can't climb to avoid. Not saying don't follow AVEFAME, but sound headwork applies and there isn't a perfect book answer for every scenario. I agree a climb over the VOR would probably be a weird move. The terrain is everywhere south, east, and west of the field. So get turned back up the valley, keep climbing, and join the nearest portion of your clearance. Just my .02, there are a number of ways to skin that cat for sure.

 

[ppragman]

Eugene is a good example of the SA you need to have about terrain in the local airport environment. Plenty of other good ones. But ultimately if you are NORDO and IMC, go to the place you know doesn't have terrain you can't climb to avoid. Not saying don't follow AVEFAME, but sound headwork applies and there isn't a perfect book answer for every scenario. I agree a climb over the VOR would probably be a weird move. The terrain is everywhere south, east, and west of the field. So get turned back up the valley, keep climbing, and join the nearest portion of your clearance. Just my .02, there are a number of ways to skin that cat for sure.

Right - NORDO is hard, because, arguably it's an emergency, and, a great deal of the ODPs out there are just... weird and bad? It's like they wrote the ODP in 1959, they test fly it every 7 years or whatever and they're like, "you still didn't hit anything, cool!" then they don't evaluate if it's practical or safe at all.

Take a look at this ridiculous one I used to fly all the time out of PAMC:

so, if you depart runway 16 for Anchorage, the logical course would be to just make a turn to the left to join the airway, there's, this is especially the case if you're only doing 470'/NM.

Imagine, for example, that you're flying a Navajo, and you are flying the ODP, and you lose an engine at 200'AGL, you're never going to make it to 1700' to then do it, you should just climb slowly out over the flat terrain. Finally, if you're flying something that does way better than 470'/NM the course is ridiculous. You take off, basically fly runway heading, then make a sharp turn to the left then a sharp turn to the right. The "smart money" is on "takeoff, make a slight turn to about 090 or so, then join the airway... but that would be verboten.

I guess I think the number one rules is... "Don't hit anything - that starts with mountains, but extends to other airplanes."

 

[CFI A&P]

Say, you are departing a runway with a departure procedure from a towered airport without radar. You IFR clearance is: runway heading radar vectors then some close VOR. But this is different from the published ODP. What is the correct procedure in this situation?

From AIM: ODPs are recommended for obstruction clearance and may be flown without ATC clearance unless an alternate departure procedure (SID or radar vector) has been specifically assigned by ATC.

The clearance with radar vectors is your departure procedure. If you're unsure of the controller's intentions, or lack of faith in the aircraft's ability to have a sufficient climb gradient, then request the ODP (if you meet the climb gradient requirement of that ODP).

This is common interview question with an airport in the San Diego area. The trap is turn on course at 400' (east into cumulogranite), the correct answer is follow the ODP.

 

[///AMG]

This is common interview question with an airport in the San Diego area. The trap is turn on course at 400' (east into cumulogranite), the correct answer is follow the ODP.

I mean, I think it is a pretty readily available "sign" if diverse departure is N/A for the runway in question, right? Agreed, those mountains have trapped more than one unfortunate aviator. But the answers to the test are written on the test

 

[DE727UPS]

This is common interview question with an airport in the San Diego area. The trap is turn on course at 400' (east into cumulogranite), the correct answer is follow the ODP.

Is it common for ATC to issue a vector/heading on departure from there I wonder. Would be a recipe for disaster. The night Lear crash at PSP many, many, years ago comes to mind.

 

[CFI A&P]

Is it common for ATC to issue a vector/heading on departure from there I wonder. Would be a recipe for disaster. The night Lear crash at PSP many, many, years ago comes to mind.

Could be related. The PSP departures are fun, a climbing pirouette of sorts until the MEA for direction of flight.

 

[///AMG]

Could be related. The PSP departures are fun, a climbing pirouette of sorts until the MEA for direction of flight.

haha the SID out of PSP is one hell of an eye chart depending on departure direction. "Fly here, then here, then circle the field 12 times in a teardrop followed by a bowtie" until socal just clears you direct to the transition point anyways.