To ODP, or not to ODP, that is the question.

[Roger Roger]

And I’ve proven you wrong with examples and OpsSpecs and yet you continue your crusade. A check airmen finally chimed in via email and said “ODP are absolutely not required.”
So keep trudging on my friend...

Well if they got their check airman training from the same training department that gave you initial with the fairly glaring holes you admitted they have....I don’t know that that means much.

 

[ppragman]

And I’ve proven you wrong with examples and OpsSpecs and yet you continue your crusade. A check airmen finally chimed in via email and said “ODP are absolutely not required.”
So keep trudging on my friend...

Literally nobody has said an ODP is mandatory if you can get an alternative procedure from ATC...

 

[gotWXdagain]

Fly the ODP, when at the minimum vector altitude ask for direct.

That’s not entirely correct. Good WX? Depart VFR and pick up your clearance en-route. Own obstacle clearance until your ATC IFR services start.

 

[z987k]

That’s not entirely correct. Good WX? Depart VFR and pick up your clearance en-route. Own obstacle clearance until your ATC IFR services start.

The vast majority of 121 cannot do this since they cannot fly under VFR.

 

[z987k]

And I’ve proven you wrong with examples and OpsSpecs and yet you continue your crusade. A check airmen finally chimed in via email and said “ODP are absolutely not required.”
So keep trudging on my friend...

So that part of the opspec we have seen - "the flight crew may accept an IFR clearance containing a takeoff and climb in VFR conditions out to a specifed point in the clearance"

When you get the clearance, Mesa cleared to DEN as filed, climb and maintain FL200, squawk 1234, that doesn't mean you can just takeoff from any runway and go direct to the first fix if it's VFR. A Climb in VFR conditions has to be prescribed in some way. A much better example we should be using is KTEX. It has an ODP and a Climb in visual, if you took off 27 and made the 180 in the climb, direct DEN, you'd CFIT. You probably wouldn't even be able to visually keep out of the terrain if you stayed on that course.

ATC has the ability to give you a climb visually to X fix, but given that the airports we're talking about are non-radar at the surface you won't be hearing that. They cannot give terrain separation if they can't see you. As soon as they do, they can assume terrain clearance duties and give you a heading off the ODP. Which is why you see the other companies complying with the regulations going halfway to the fix and then getting a direct.

 

[deadstick]

Folks—

I’m glad I went to bed when I did. It’s a legitimate question that needs a professional discussion.

FWIW, I found the LOI, Weiman (2015).

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2015/Weiman-Flyer%20Publications%20-%20(2015)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

There's a lot of stuff that "doesn't make sense" but is "LAW!"

No joke.

Literally nobody has said an ODP is mandatory if you can get an alternative procedure from ATC...

I thought this was one of the questions, i.e. ODP say to fly heading 010 to 2000, but ATC clears you for takeoff with a right turn to 090.

 

[STS-41B]

Folks—

I’m glad I went to bed when I did. It’s a legitimate question that needs a professional discussion.

FWIW, I found the LOI, Weiman (2015).

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2015/Weiman-Flyer%20Publications%20-%20(2015)%20Legal%20Interpretation.pdf

No joke.



I thought this was one of the questions, i.e. ODP say to fly heading 010 to 2000, but ATC clears you for takeoff with a right turn to 090.

out of DRO, they just release you for departure, and say to call once airborne.
typically we contact them after passing 1000' AGL.. and are beginning a left turn (if off of 21) to intercept the airway... or dodging GA traffic and keeping head on a swivel. Apparently Mr ppragman thinks it's required to do the ODP which states to turn right then make your way to a certain fix.

Yes, I'll give you this: there are glaring holes in the training with regards to this - and that's why I asked on here; I'm not trying to be above the law, I'm trying to do the right thing. But when you constantly get conflicting information, it's hard to figure out which is right... and when reading the reg he keeps throwing out, it's get exemptions as well.

Flying around the mountains of Alaska is different in that I'm sure you're often boxed in and the ODP is the only way to get out of there.. DRO has mountains to the northeast but launching off of 21, you're out over flatlands with no terrain to worry about.

 

[ppragman]

Apparently Mr ppragman thinks it's required to do the ODP which states to turn right then make your way to a certain fix.

If you do not have an alternative procedure... yes..

 

[STS-41B]

If you do not have an alternative procedure... yes..

what is your idea of an "alternative procedure?" / does maintaining VFR and your own terrain clearance count?

 

[ppragman]

what is your idea of an "alternative procedure?" / does maintaining VFR and your own terrain clearance count?

Only if you've been given a clearance to do so.

So if you leave literally VFR, do whatever you want. If you do a VCOA, climb over the airport in accordance with the procedure. If you get the clearance, "maintain VFR below XXX, climb and maintain YYY" then you can do what you want. But you have to be cleared for that. You cannot just takeoff and turn.

That's what the reg says. To paraphrase it, "Do the ODP unless ATC tells you to do something else." If you request, then subsequently receive a VFR climb that meets the requirements of C077 in your opspecs, then more power to you, but flying the ODP in the absence of alternative instructions is not optional.

 

[ppragman]

I thought this was one of the questions, i.e. ODP say to fly heading 010 to 2000, but ATC clears you for takeoff with a right turn to 090.

ATC gives you a heading, then you're good, a la 91.175f3. They're taking responsibility for terrain and obstruction clearance at that point.

 

[z987k]

what is your idea of an "alternative procedure?" / does maintaining VFR and your own terrain clearance count?

Well not really since what we are talking about specifically applies to taking off under IFR.
If you're VFR or are issued a VFR climb, which is the exact same thing, make sure you have the opspec to fly under VFR. ATC may issue that all day, but they have no way to know your opspecs, just like we don't. Note that a Visual climb above airport or other charted visual procedure as a procedure is still an IFR clearance, just like a visual approach is and does meet the alternate procedure.
I know it's incredibly rare for 121 and even jets under 135 to have VFR, so my guess would be you don't. Sometimes you'll have it within 30 miles just not en-route, in which case you'd be good.
An example along these lines is LAHSO, HNL loves LAHSO. My company cannot do it. If you don't let them know when you check on they'll try to give you one no matter how ridiculous it is. It's up to the pilot's to know their rules and sometimes inform or decline an ATC instruction.
So ATC would be happy to give VFR if you ask, they can't know if you can legally accept that or not and are going to assume you can if you ask for it.

 

[z987k]

Flying around the mountains of Alaska is different in that I'm sure you're often boxed in and the ODP is the only way to get out of there.. DRO has mountains to the northeast but launching off of 21, you're out over flatlands with no terrain to worry about.

This part is entirely irrelevant. The rules are exactly the same.

 

[deadstick]

ATC gives you a heading, then you're good, a la 91.175f3. They're taking responsibility for terrain and obstruction clearance at that point.

Ok good....now I’m confused about what in the heck the problem is here.

 

[z987k]

Ok good....now I’m confused about what in the heck the problem is here.

Because of that, this whole discussion really is about non-radar departures.

 

[deadstick]

Gotcha. From what I’ve learned, the ATC order is getting overhauled to...unfornicate it because there is a lot of confusion on both sides of the radio.

from the current JO 7110.65Y, 4-3-2...

c. Departure Procedures.
1. Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial
heading to be flown after takeoff as follows:

(a) Locations with Airport Traffic Control Service−Specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading as necessary, consistent with published:
(1) Departure Procedures (DP). If an aircraft is vectored off a published Standard Instrument Departure (SID) or Obstacle Departure Procedure (ODP), that vector cancels the DP and ATC becomes responsible for separation from terrain and /or obstructions. IFR aircraft must be assigned an altitude.
(2) Diverse Vector Areas (DVA). The assignment of an initial heading using a DVA can be given to the pilot as part of the initial clearance, but must be given no later than with the takeoff clearance. Once airborne, an aircraft assigned headings within the DVA can be vectored below the MVA/MIA. Controllers cannot interrupt an aircraft’s climb in the DVA until the aircraft is at or above the MVA/MIA.
NOTE−
It is important for controllers to understand that there can be differences in published climb gradients applicable to individual departure procedures serving the same airport or runway. Assigning a different departure procedure without the pilot being able to re−brief may result in the pilot rejecting the new procedure.
REFERENCE−
AIM, Para 5−2−7. Departure Control.
AIM, Para 5−2−9. Instrument Departure Procedures (DP) − Obstacle Departure Procedures (ODP) and Standard Instrument Departures (SID).

(b) Locations without Airport Traffic Control Service, but within a Class E surface area* specify direction of takeoff/turn or initial heading if necessary. Obtain/solicit the pilot’s concurrence concerning a turn or heading before issuing them in a clearance.
NOTE−
Direction of takeoff and turn after takeoff can be obtained/solicited directly from the pilot, or relayed by an FSS, dispatcher, etc., as obtained/solicited from the pilot.

(c) At all other airports− Do not specify direction of takeoff/turn after takeoff. If necessary to specify an initial heading to be flown after takeoff, issue the initial heading so as to apply only within controlled airspace.

2. Where an obstacle departure procedure (ODP) has been published for a location and pilot compliance is necessary to ensure separation, include the procedure as part of the ATC clearance.
EXAMPLE−
“Depart via the (airport name)(runway number) departure procedure.”
Or
“Depart via the (graphic ODP name) obstacle departure procedure.”
NOTE−
Some aircraft are required by 14 CFR 91.175 to depart a runway under IFR using the ODP absent other instructions from ATC.
NOTE−
IFR takeoff minimums and obstacle departure procedures are prescribed for specific airports/runways and published in either a textual, or graphic form with the label (OBSTACLE) in the procedure title, and documented on an appropriate FAA Form 8260. To alert pilots of their existence, instrument approach procedure charts are annotated with a symbol:

Here the whole thing if anybody wants some light reading.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/7110.65Y_Basic_w_Chg_1_1-30-20.pdf

 

[CFI A&P]

And I’ve proven you wrong with examples and OpsSpecs and yet you continue your crusade. A check airmen finally chimed in via email and said “ODP are absolutely not required.”
So keep trudging on my friend...

Your check airman is wrong. I regularly fly in out of airports like these, especially in a non-radar environment. This isn't too difficult: VMC or IMC, the aircraft doesn't know there is cumulogranite or airspace conflicts in the way, so you HAVE to fly the ODP, SID or ATC assigned instructions (which includes ATC authorized visual climb on course)... Either one of those will ensure you don't fly in to cumulogranite or the bordering airspace. Single engine departure off the 30s in SJC has a climbing right turn to a heading of 123 - away from the bay towards the mountains. They don't want your handicapped airplane busting into Moffett or SFO airspace. In the case of DRO, do you want to know why the single engine procedure says to go straight, where as the two engine says turn? Guess what happens to total lift/ drag when in a turn during single engine operations? 50 percent loss of thrust = 80 loss in performance...

I'll say it again because it is worth repeating, your check airman is wrong. Just ask the pilots that turn on course out of places like PSP, TRK, or TVL before completing the ODP and caused a TA/RA situation... Yeah, they got a number to call and had to defend their actions.

You need to re-read 91.175, and call your CFII.

Oh, and the flap position should be covered on the appropriate checklists for de-icing. They're down to avoid jamming or damage when getting sprayed, then up to appropriate setting for take-off. You should also have a flight control sweep after de-icing for the same reason: check for any binding or resistance from ice in the flight control hinges.

Don't worry, you can pay me or @ppragman later for this instruction. We accept Western Union, Venmo, Paypal , Bitcoin...

 

[z987k]

Your check airman is wrong. I regularly flight in out of airports like these, especially in a non-radar environment. This isn't too difficult: VMC or IMC, the aircraft doesn't know there is cumulogranite or airspace conflicts in the way, so you HAVE to fly the ODP, SID or ATC assigned instructions (which includes ATC authorized visual climb on course)... Either one of those will ensure you don't fly in to cumulogranite or the bordering airspace. Single engine departure off the 30s in SJC has a climbing right turn to a heading of 123 - away from the bay towards the mountains. They don't want your handicapped airplane busting into Moffett or SFO airspace. In the case of DRO, do you want to know why the single engine procedure says to go straight, where as the two engine says turn? Guess what happens to total lift/ drag when in a turn during single engine operations? 50 percent loss of thrust = 80 loss in performance...

I'll say it again because it is worth repeating, your check airman is wrong. Just ask the pilots that turn on course out of places like PSP, TRK, or TVL before completing the ODP and caused a TA/RA situation... Yeah, they got a number to call and had to defend their actions.

You need to re-read 91.175, and call your CFII.

Oh, and the flap position should be covered on the appropriate checklists for de-icing. They're down to avoid jamming or damage when getting sprayed, then up to appropriate setting for take-off. You should also have a flight control sweep after de-icing for the same reason: check for any binding or resistance from ice in the flight control hinges.

Don't worry, you can pay me or @ppragman later for this instruction. We accept Western Union, Venmo, Paypal , Bitcoin...

It sounds to me like Mesa needs to have someone from the Feds look over their training curriculum if you can get out of the school house not knowing this. Extra scary that the check airman doesn't. Which I guess answers one reason they don't teach it.

 

[ppragman]

Your check airman is wrong. I regularly fly in out of airports like these, especially in a non-radar environment. This isn't too difficult: VMC or IMC, the aircraft doesn't know there is cumulogranite or airspace conflicts in the way, so you HAVE to fly the ODP, SID or ATC assigned instructions (which includes ATC authorized visual climb on course)... Either one of those will ensure you don't fly in to cumulogranite or the bordering airspace. Single engine departure off the 30s in SJC has a climbing right turn to a heading of 123 - away from the bay towards the mountains. They don't want your handicapped airplane busting into Moffett or SFO airspace. In the case of DRO, do you want to know why the single engine procedure says to go straight, where as the two engine says turn? Guess what happens to total lift/ drag when in a turn during single engine operations? 50 percent loss of thrust = 80 loss in performance...

I'll say it again because it is worth repeating, your check airman is wrong. Just ask the pilots that turn on course out of places like PSP, TRK, or TVL before completing the ODP and caused a TA/RA situation... Yeah, they got a number to call and had to defend their actions.

You need to re-read 91.175, and call your CFII.

Oh, and the flap position should be covered on the appropriate checklists for de-icing. They're down to avoid jamming or damage when getting sprayed, then up to appropriate setting for take-off. You should also have a flight control sweep after de-icing for the same reason: check for any binding or resistance from ice in the flight control hinges.

Don't worry, you can pay me or @ppragman later for this instruction. We accept Western Union, Venmo, Paypal , Bitcoin...

I only accept payment in kitchy craft beers... this also explains my general lack of money.

 

[STS-41B]

Oh, and the flap position should be covered on the appropriate checklists for de-icing. They're down to avoid jamming or damage when getting sprayed, then up to appropriate setting for take-off. You should also have a flight control sweep after de-icing for the same reason: check for any binding or resistance from ice in the flight control hinges.


[/QUOTE]

According to our manuals, no. you de-ice with flaps up and use the 100% HOT.
Or you de-ice with flaps down all the way and use the 76% HOT.
However there are some who de-ice with flaps at t/o setting.

de-ice checklist has nothing about flight-controls check post de-ice.. however if de-icing w/ flaps up, you then jump back to the after-start checklist and will likely do a flight-control check at that point.

I agree with you - recurrent is jammed up with required things they cover, we need the chance to review the important things such as those being discussed here.