This industry sucks (rant)

After having gotten multiple major interviews and the TBNT after every one, you can’t help but wonder if the cynicism comes off in the interview.

I have no idea if this is the case or not, but if it is, it’s a sad case of I told you so. You listen to the wrong people in these hiring threads and they will cost you a job. These users are actively hurting the career progression of other pilots by saying and positing idiotic takes on here.
 
I have no idea if this is the case or not, but if it is, it’s a sad case of I told you so. You listen to the wrong people in these hiring threads and they will cost you a job. These users are actively hurting the career progression of other pilots by saying and positing idiotic takes on here.
I don’t really remember any bad advice being given in any of these. The standard advice was usually met with derision.
 
The simple fact is that as far as I can tell nobody can pass these interviews without prep, because they have nothing to do with the applicant and everything to do with how well they've studied the gouge. I was asked to "list the thirteen briefing criteria" in the interview, which is a common question according to the gouge. But the interview packet they send doesn't even gently imply that you need to memorize those things—it says "Using a Threat Forward Briefing concept, . . . crew briefings typically cover the following information."

But the expectation is that you have those thirteen things memorized. Even better is if you have a friend's briefing card, because sometimes they ask candidates for a full united-style briefing and expect that they're able to do it. (Yes, I had both, but I wouldn't have known to do that without paying someone for what is, effectively, gouge. I would have walked in, prepared to hit them with my airline's standard briefing if asked)

I had no prep for either interview, but I'm generally pretty good at speaking on-the-fly. I didn't get American, SouthernJets was my 'interview prep' for United. I quickly 'found my people' and decided that I'd make a home at SouthernJets.

The people who do FANTASTIC at interviews really haven't prepped and "my friend that works in pilot selection" can tell if a candidate prepped or not in the first 30 seconds because most of them answer questions in the exact same fashion or ask the exact same followup/clarity questions. Prep is fine, but like I've always said through the history of JC, giving someone money to help you prepare for an interview does not mean you're going to get a job. I've offered on numerous occasions to guide you through expectations on interviews absolutely gratis.

Even the TMAAT questions, which, according to people in the interview process, are "just a way to get to know you," need to be:
• An appropriate story that fits the situation, that:
• Paints you in a good light, and;
• Hits all of the "humility, resilience, etc, etc" criteria, and;
• Is told in a specific format ("STAR"), and yet somehow isn't canned or stolen from someone else.

Absolutely forget this as it's a candidates misunderstanding of what they're trying to do. If you think pilots created the interview process, run the process or even produce the questions being asked, they'e not nor will they ever because we're not trained in HR. And HR doesn't even formulate the questions, because they're just lieutenants of "Talent Acquisition". Heck, there's an airline based somewhere in the South-Central US where Hwy 183 divides their home airport where TA has completely taken over the process and pilots are largely spokesmodels for "candidate comfort."

Everyone has an 'appropriate story', everyone is going to put themselves in the best light, etc. etc. etc. Plus the STAR format is a crutch and not a universal method of answering a question. That's to help the candidate in a very generic situation, but a person needs to be able to articulate an answer, show their role in the decision and share a lesson. It's no different than my wife wondering why my biking shirt is torn, thorny and has a little blood smeared.

STAR/Clinical/"canned"
"I crashed my mountain bike out on the trail, I had to recover somehow. I picked myself up, turned off my iPod and walked my bike back home and the resolution was that I need to make better decisions about not only type of music or even listening to music on the trails at all" <— sounds clinical, almost like a pretentious 12 year old who is proud of himself.

Natural:

"I was going too fast, took a corner wrong, end-o'd over the handlebars and you know, I'm just not going to stupidly ride to Korn in my earphones, I rode too aggressively and I couldn't hear my brakes lose traction in the gravel." - My own words, a little self-deprecating, sincere because it's what actually happened, not how I was coached to answer.


Why do I need to constantly debrief interviews to try to learn how to interview better in this tortured format so that I can become a better actor so that I can convince someone to give me a chance someday?

Why do I need to do a medical every six months, CQ every 9 months and QCQ every quarter?! Wear a uniform? Why do I need to wear four striped epaulets because they're pretentious and are we ALL captain-qualified?! :)

Why? Because you want a job. That's why you need to talk about your experience with people that know what they're talking about, not some dude at the bar or some causal observer on the internet. If it was my employer you interviewed at, were not successful and you didn't reach out to talk about it, complaints would fall on deaf ears because you clearly showed a real world example of poor CRM skills because you didn't use your resources when it counted.

The unique opportunity that you have, and that is rapidly going stale, is reaching out to a person on JC with a more intimate knowledge of the process at UAL because you may be missing something super obvious to them, but not apparent to you because you aren't a professionally-trained interviewer. But this person is. Next week will be too late, do it this week and the insight absolutely will prepare you for the next interview.

If you want to fly the big jets and you've been unsuccessful at those endeavors so far, I heavily suggest wrapping how you feel about the process and look forensically at what went down again.

You're making this way harder than it needs to be. Again, this is an solutions-based community.


Suggestions, if you wish to continue:

1. Reach out to "you know who" like tonight or tomorrow. He can help.
2. Airlines hire exceptional candidates. Period. Notice I said nothing about who is most deserving, who had the hardest challenges, who experienced the heaviest headwinds.
3. Look for a job like there are no other alternatives, that dedication will show in your performance. Actually, there are no other alternatives, aviation is one of the last above sea-level islands in a constantly rising ocean, ask around. You, even at your current carrier, have one of the top 10%-earning jobs in the nation.

You'll be fine and if you quit you'll just be back in ten years. I see it all the time. Hell, last night I ran into a guy who was on JC that quit aviation after 9/11. I generally see him in 5 year increments and quite literally:

2005: "I'm glad I left aviation, I'm always home and make a lot of money"
2010: "You probably arne't home that much, I'm always home, building houses, making money. Where'd you do Christmas THIS year? LOL"
2015: "Yeah, I could have gotten back in but I can't afford the pay cut, have you even cracked $100K after the payouts?" (ahh geez, what?! ha!)
2020: "Yeah, I'm sure glad I don't have to deal with COVID, I can't see how you stay in the profession. Aren't you sick of hotels"
2025: Literally last night when I dropped into the neighborhood bar: "I should have stayed in. What do you work, 18 days a month? Only about 7 to 10? Wow I should have stayed in, but [litanny of excuses why he didn't/couldn't], I really wish I stuck with it, man I'd be a 777 captain by now for sure"

Don't be that person.
 
People often try to "help" people by offering them platitudes, advice that can't be operated on, or attempts to make them conform to their own ideology. When it is pointed out that the advice doesn't apply for whatever reason, that's treated as "rejecting such good, heartfelt advice," or "lashing out."

I am miserable. I do not enjoy this career at this point. I don't expect anyone to have any useful advice.

I wanted to rant that $SUBJECT.

If you want straight advice, on the subject of whether you should quit SKW, I would say unequivocally yes. Like, yesterday. For any other good flying job, not just a few 121s

Based on what you yourself have described in this thread and others, the specific situation you are in…..DEC with plug seniority, and what that does, or in this case doesn’t, get you….and the fact that all of that is literally killing you, is all the more reason.

Because this is for sure, you have zero ability to change the company. You can’t change its policies, it’s reserve rules, it’s scheduling, how it uses reserves, how it schedules you, etc. And from what you have written and described, which I have no reason to believe isn’t true, and that it in fact is literally shortening your life in addition to making you entirely miserable, that leaves you two options:

Stay and die, either of a stroke or heart attack or something else brought on by what you are putting your body and mind through as described.

Or quit, and live.

Those are literally your only two options.

And the fatigue you feel and lack of sleep, that’s another whole can of worms. If some kind of change from being a night owl can’t be made, then you are very ripe for a fatigue related error that will end up bending/breaking your aircraft, bending/breaking yours and another aircraft, or injuring someone. You think if something like that happens, the airline and it’s toxic management is going to have your back by coming out and saying “our bad, we really did give you a sucky schedule and highly contributed to your cumulative fatigue level”. Nope. They’re going to throw you and whichever dip dunk co-pilot you have with you under the bus so fast it won’t even be funny. And they’ll hold up the flight release you signed attesting to being fully fit for duty and ready to go, as they drive the proverbial bus over you. Not to mention any danger to certificates.

The work life the airline has for you sounds utterly miserable, as you describe it. And based on the specifics you’ve written, it makes me wonder what sane person would put up with that kind of schedule; definition of insanity and all. The airline seems completely toxic for someone in your situation and place in the organization.

That is no way to live and no way to work, but that said, putting all your eggs in the majors 121 basket only, and hoping for that change only, is limiting yourself. You’re doing disservice to yourself by writing off a complete segment of aviation in painting 91 corporate with a broadbrush of perception. Not all of it is some single rich person with a private jet who expects you take their wife to Aspen at 5am with 3 hours notice. There’s a broad spectrum of the corporate world, but the point is, you end up unduly limiting yourself. Aviation is wide ranging, don’t end up let down and disappointed by needlessly limiting yourself .

There is no aviation job that is going to fit neatly into this cube of perfection and check all the boxes you want checked in how it should be created, operated, compensated, and ethically run. Any expectation of that, by anybody for any job, is a fools errand. And will only result in disappointment.

That aside, in terms of the original question of quitting or staying where you are at, my advice for that stands. Quit as soon as viably possible, by not limiting yourself. Because at the rate and depth of what you have described in numerous posts on your specific airline with regards to your specific position within it, you may not live long enough to end up being able to make that choice, if it’s indeed killing you like it sounds like it is.

I am miserable. I do not enjoy this career at this point. I don't expect anyone to have any useful advice.”

Removing yourself from the toxicity causing this, is the first step, everything else is second and third order.

Save yourself and look out for your own health, because the company sure won’t. As WacoFan once said long ago, all they see you as (and everyone) is merely motor oil.
 
The simple fact is that as far as I can tell nobody can pass these interviews without prep, because they have nothing to do with the applicant and everything to do with how well they've studied the gouge. I was asked to "list the thirteen briefing criteria" in the interview, which is a common question according to the gouge. But the interview packet they send doesn't even gently imply that you need to memorize those things—it says "Using a Threat Forward Briefing concept, . . . crew briefings typically cover the following information."

But the expectation is that you have those thirteen things memorized. Even better is if you have a friend's briefing card, because sometimes they ask candidates for a full united-style briefing and expect that they're able to do it. (Yes, I had both, but I wouldn't have known to do that without paying someone for what is, effectively, gouge. I would have walked in, prepared to hit them with my airline's standard briefing if asked)

Even the TMAAT questions, which, according to people in the interview process, are "just a way to get to know you," need to be:
• An appropriate story that fits the situation, that:
• Paints you in a good light, and;
• Hits all of the "humility, resilience, etc, etc" criteria, and;
• Is told in a specific format ("STAR"), and yet somehow isn't canned or stolen from someone else.

And we're going to make sure to ask different questions so that we can catch a candidate off guard. Because the real test, you see, is whether they can compose one of these stories on the fly that hits all the bullet points.

They also appear to be specifically designed to screen out people like me. I'm amazed they even interviewed me, but I did literally everything in my power to get ready for this interview, and they still said no.

Why do I need to constantly debrief interviews to try to learn how to interview better in this tortured format so that I can become a better actor so that I can convince someone to give me a chance someday?

I was as good as I could be for all of these interviews. If they don't want me, they don't want me. I get "don't give up" after one or two interviews when you're 23, but pretty much everybody has told me no at this point, some multiple times.

I'm listening to everything everybody says, but it's starting to feel like toxic positivity.
I don’t post here much anymore for lots of reasons but mostly because I don’t want to get cancelled. But, I’ve read this thread as well as the last one you posted last year. I have conducted dozens of interviews and hired a massive smattering of people from all walks of life. So, here is my response. It and $5 will get you a latte at Starbucks.

“Why do I need to constantly debrief interviews to try to learn how to interview better in this tortured format so that I can become a better actor so that I can convince someone to give me a chance someday?”
Because you aren’t getting hired. Everything in life is a game. If you don’t want to play, that’s fine, but understand that there are plenty of folks who will. Don’t hate them for it.

Flying airplanes is easy, I don’t even look at logbooks anymore. Instead I have conversations because the one thing I can’t teach someone is how to not be an ahole.


“Even the TMAAT questions, which, according to people in the interview process, are "just a way to get to know you," need to be:
• An appropriate story that fits the situation, that:
• Paints you in a good light, and;
• Hits all of the "humility, resilience, etc, etc" criteria, and;
• Is told in a specific format ("STAR"), and yet somehow isn't canned or stolen from someone else.”

From what I can tell, you’re not a vanilla individual, you’re not run of the mill. I’ve sat across from you in the terminal and seen you interact with both the public and coworkers. Why on EARTH would you study canned answers & scenarios. (Side note: I’m not a stalker, I’m a people-phobe in general, essentially one of the goth kids on south park unless I have to be “on”.)

“If they don't want me, they don't want me.”
You’re not giving them you. Would you hire someone who wasn’t being completely honest with you?

Now, about now you might be thinking: “You said play the game.” Yep, sure did. That doesn’t mean canned answers or rehearsed stories. I’m a colossal ass at times, I love playing games with people who take things too seriously. It’s fun, you should try it. One of the greatest joys on earth is to (respectfully of course) play with those who have the ability to hire/fire you.

You know the rules, they know the rules. Use the rules to set yourself apart. You know they’re going to try and catch you off guard, so reframe the given scenario to catch them off guard. Put them into a position to say “I’ve never even thought about it that way.”

You’re credentialed, experienced, and mostly willing. You’re obviously not afraid of change. I’m sure you didn’t wake up one day and decide the changes you needed to make in your life were going to be easy, but you didn’t quit or give up. Why quit now?

Drastically change your approach to interviews and swing for the fences. What do you have to lose? Worst case you slog it out at you current employer until get enough seniority to improve your QOL. At least if a lot of folks around you get hired by the majors you’ve got nowhere to go but up.

Do you have the option to become a check airman or some sort of union liaison?
 
*Points to the subject*



People often try to "help" people by offering them platitudes, advice that can't be operated on, or attempts to make them conform to their own ideology. When it is pointed out that the advice doesn't apply for whatever reason, that's treated as "rejecting such good, heartfelt advice," or "lashing out."

I am miserable. I do not enjoy this career at this point. I don't expect anyone to have any useful advice.

I wanted to rant that $SUBJECT.
Fair enough. Why haven't you quit yet? I don't think you have answered that.
 
I had no prep for either interview, but I'm generally pretty good at speaking on-the-fly. I didn't get American, SouthernJets was my 'interview prep' for United. I quickly 'found my people' and decided that I'd make a home at SouthernJets.

The people who do FANTASTIC at interviews really haven't prepped and "my friend that works in pilot selection" can tell if a candidate prepped or not in the first 30 seconds because most of them answer questions in the exact same fashion or ask the exact same followup/clarity questions. Prep is fine, but like I've always said through the history of JC, giving someone money to help you prepare for an interview does not mean you're going to get a job. I've offered on numerous occasions to guide you through expectations on interviews absolutely gratis.



Absolutely forget this as it's a candidates misunderstanding of what they're trying to do. If you think pilots created the interview process, run the process or even produce the questions being asked, they'e not nor will they ever because we're not trained in HR. And HR doesn't even formulate the questions, because they're just lieutenants of "Talent Acquisition". Heck, there's an airline based somewhere in the South-Central US where Hwy 183 divides their home airport where TA has completely taken over the process and pilots are largely spokesmodels for "candidate comfort."

Everyone has an 'appropriate story', everyone is going to put themselves in the best light, etc. etc. etc. Plus the STAR format is a crutch and not a universal method of answering a question. That's to help the candidate in a very generic situation, but a person needs to be able to articulate an answer, show their role in the decision and share a lesson. It's no different than my wife wondering why my biking shirt is torn, thorny and has a little blood smeared.

STAR/Clinical/"canned"
"I crashed my mountain bike out on the trail, I had to recover somehow. I picked myself up, turned off my iPod and walked my bike back home and the resolution was that I need to make better decisions about not only type of music or even listening to music on the trails at all" <— sounds clinical, almost like a pretentious 12 year old who is proud of himself.

Natural:

"I was going too fast, took a corner wrong, end-o'd over the handlebars and you know, I'm just not going to stupidly ride to Korn in my earphones, I rode too aggressively and I couldn't hear my brakes lose traction in the gravel." - My own words, a little self-deprecating, sincere because it's what actually happened, not how I was coached to answer.




Why do I need to do a medical every six months, CQ every 9 months and QCQ every quarter?! Wear a uniform? Why do I need to wear four striped epaulets because they're pretentious and are we ALL captain-qualified?! :)

Why? Because you want a job. That's why you need to talk about your experience with people that know what they're talking about, not some dude at the bar or some causal observer on the internet. If it was my employer you interviewed at, were not successful and you didn't reach out to talk about it, complaints would fall on deaf ears because you clearly showed a real world example of poor CRM skills because you didn't use your resources when it counted.

The unique opportunity that you have, and that is rapidly going stale, is reaching out to a person on JC with a more intimate knowledge of the process at UAL because you may be missing something super obvious to them, but not apparent to you because you aren't a professionally-trained interviewer. But this person is. Next week will be too late, do it this week and the insight absolutely will prepare you for the next interview.

If you want to fly the big jets and you've been unsuccessful at those endeavors so far, I heavily suggest wrapping how you feel about the process and look forensically at what went down again.

You're making this way harder than it needs to be. Again, this is an solutions-based community.


Suggestions, if you wish to continue:

1. Reach out to "you know who" like tonight or tomorrow. He can help.
2. Airlines hire exceptional candidates. Period. Notice I said nothing about who is most deserving, who had the hardest challenges, who experienced the heaviest headwinds.
3. Look for a job like there are no other alternatives, that dedication will show in your performance. Actually, there are no other alternatives, aviation is one of the last above sea-level islands in a constantly rising ocean, ask around. You, even at your current carrier, have one of the top 10%-earning jobs in the nation.

You'll be fine and if you quit you'll just be back in ten years. I see it all the time. Hell, last night I ran into a guy who was on JC that quit aviation after 9/11. I generally see him in 5 year increments and quite literally:

2005: "I'm glad I left aviation, I'm always home and make a lot of money"
2010: "You probably arne't home that much, I'm always home, building houses, making money. Where'd you do Christmas THIS year? LOL"
2015: "Yeah, I could have gotten back in but I can't afford the pay cut, have you even cracked $100K after the payouts?" (ahh geez, what?! ha!)
2020: "Yeah, I'm sure glad I don't have to deal with COVID, I can't see how you stay in the profession. Aren't you sick of hotels"
2025: Literally last night when I dropped into the neighborhood bar: "I should have stayed in. What do you work, 18 days a month? Only about 7 to 10? Wow I should have stayed in, but [litanny of excuses why he didn't/couldn't], I really wish I stuck with it, man I'd be a 777 captain by now for sure"

Don't be that person.
1759994709004.jpeg


Anyone that has as much as he does on his plate and is still willing to help is the person you want in your corner.
 
We have one
I don’t post here much anymore for lots of reasons but mostly because I don’t want to get cancelled. But, I’ve read this thread as well as the last one you posted last year. I have conducted dozens of interviews and hired a massive smattering of people from all walks of life. So, here is my response. It and $5 will get you a latte at Starbucks.

“Why do I need to constantly debrief interviews to try to learn how to interview better in this tortured format so that I can become a better actor so that I can convince someone to give me a chance someday?”
Because you aren’t getting hired. Everything in life is a game. If you don’t want to play, that’s fine, but understand that there are plenty of folks who will. Don’t hate them for it.

I don't hate the playa.

From what I can tell, you’re not a vanilla individual, you’re not run of the mill. I’ve sat across from you in the terminal and seen you interact with both the public and coworkers. Why on EARTH would you study canned answers & scenarios. (Side note: I’m not a stalker, I’m a people-phobe in general, essentially one of the goth kids on south park unless I have to be “on”.)

Huh. What was the situation, and how'd I do?

“If they don't want me, they don't want me.”
You’re not giving them you. Would you hire someone who wasn’t being completely honest with you?

I am always fully honest. To be clear, for you and @derg, the United interviewers themselves said to use the STAR format. And the person I did interview prep with, who has experience as an interviewer there from what I understand, was clear as to the elements they're scoring in their answers. The interviewers even alluded to that, as well, asking us to make sure to use the STAR format and demonstrate the required traits to make our stories easier to score.

Now, about now you might be thinking: “You said play the game.” Yep, sure did. That doesn’t mean canned answers or rehearsed stories. I’m a colossal ass at times, I love playing games with people who take things too seriously. It’s fun, you should try it. One of the greatest joys on earth is to (respectfully of course) play with those who have the ability to hire/fire you.

I also chose not to use canned answers or rehearsed stories. To be clear, I used to love interviewing, on both sides of the table, when I was in tech. The interviews were much more interesting, often challenging, and sometimes involved seeing how the sausage was made at some pretty cool places.

You know the rules, they know the rules. Use the rules to set yourself apart. You know they’re going to try and catch you off guard, so reframe the given scenario to catch them off guard. Put them into a position to say “I’ve never even thought about it that way.” You’re credentialed, experienced, and mostly willing. You’re obviously not afraid of change. I’m sure you didn’t wake up one day and decide the changes you needed to make in your life were going to be easy, but you didn’t quit or give up. Why quit now?

Honestly, because at this point I have no faith that I'll ever succeed in an interview. My last interview with Southwest couldn't have gone any better, from my point of view. I was actually fresh and sharp and I felt great. It doesn't get better than that for me.

And they said no.

This last interview, I spent thousands trying to get myself in a position where I could stumble off of five days on the road into an interview and try to give them my best me.

If that doesn't work, why would I think anything else would?

Drastically change your approach to interviews and swing for the fences.

Ok, but what does that actually mean? Actionably?

Worst case you slog it out at you current employer until get enough seniority to improve your QOL. At least if a lot of folks around you get hired by the majors you’ve got nowhere to go but up.

It will probably be a year or more before I experience any seniority motion.

Do you have the option to become a check airman or some sort of union liaison?

I've had my LCA app in for two years, and I'm currently on an organizing committee that's working furiously on getting ALPA in the door at my company, which is about as close as I can get.
 
Yes. In-person interview in Denver.



One would think so, but only the SouthWest interviews involved much in the way of "guided discussion." The others were all TMAAT questions.

That said, I did interview prep for the last three of my in-person interviews. The people doing my interview prep have always had good things to say, and seemed shocked when I didn't get the nod.



I do.



I would have thought that, as well. The subject of a degree would not come up. Again, there was no guided discussion, only TMAAT.



It doesn't matter. I'm not eligible to reapply for a year, by which point that will all be over again.

And nobody else has responded to my apps this year.
Yes. In-person interview in Denver.



One would think so, but only the SouthWest interviews involved much in the way of "guided discussion." The others were all TMAAT questions.

That said, I did interview prep for the last three of my in-person interviews. The people doing my interview prep have always had good things to say, and seemed shocked when I didn't get the nod.



I do.



I would have thought that, as well. The subject of a degree would not come up. Again, there was no guided discussion, only TMAAT.



It doesn't matter. I'm not eligible to reapply for a year, by which point that will all be over again.

And nobody else has responded to my apps this year.
Was this interview off the street or through one of the GPI that your airline offers?
 
I don’t really remember any bad advice being given in any of these. The standard advice was usually met with derision.

There was a thread a couple months ago when one of our more infamous posters decided to trash the interview process. Two active legacy airline recruiters were giving advice, while one jaded poster that didn’t make it to southernjets was also giving out advice. It was bad advice though.
 
When I was droning on through the Emerald Coast process I felt like the whole concept of the program was trying to make you seem like a perfect robot. Not only did I feel like that’s not what the airlines wanted to hear, I’m not comfortable talking about myself in that way. In fact, in my delta interview, I brought up an accident that I had at the airlines that made me look bad but I was able to talk about how I learned from it.
 
When I was droning on through the Emerald Coast process I felt like the whole concept of the program was trying to make you seem like a perfect robot. Not only did I feel like that’s not what the airlines wanted to hear, I’m not comfortable talking about myself in that way. In fact, in my delta interview, I brought up an accident that I had at the airlines that made me look bad but I was able to talk about how I learned from it.

Not all interview prep is created equal.
 
I love how everyone can confidently say that without actually being here. I'm sure from the outside looking in, it must seem nice. I get to FLY JEETTTTSS OMG HOW COOL. And yeah, it is cool! I get to be a captain! That's awesome! And yeah, it is awesome.

That's the good part. And if the good part existed in isolation, I'd never leave. Move up, sure if it happened it happened, and that'd be cool.

What you're not seeing, and what people on the outside can't seem to understand no matter how much you explain it, is how grueling this job is at the bottom.

People often try to compare it to other industries, or other lifestyles. Even people in the airlines, once they have some seniority under their belt, tend to forget how much it sucks at the bottom. People at majors tend to forget the trauma pretty damned quick, by my observation.

But when you're on day five of getting woken up at 3am to work a 14 hour day, when you're running on two hours of sleep, when you're so tired that your muscles don't want to move anymore and lifting your coffee hurts, when you're stressed because you woke up to find that you'd been reflowed into five legs ending at 7pm (but it's legal because two are deadheads), giving you min rest in Fresno, and you just want to yell "•" at the top of your lungs, but you have to put on a big grin and say good morning to the TSA agent who says "God, you're back again?"

When you show up to the plane, barely hanging on, and you find that your APU is out, your brand new FAs are grouchy because they got min rest from the night before and your FO finished IOE yesterday, and you know that you're going to have to spend the next thirteen hours coaching and mentoring, and explaining vertical modes, and watching them bang through procedures with no idea of why, and you know that you're going to be doing the mental work of both seats . . .
when your first leg gets two hours of flow, and you push back, and then flow cancels and you get a wheels up time in three minutes with your engines shut down, and then you get airborne and get holding instructions, advise ready to copy . . . and you're messaging dispatch, and they don't answer, and they didn't give you reserve fuel anyway, so you declare min fuel, and your green FO is looking at you with wide eyes and a "what do I do" stare, and you're telling the FAs and ATC that you're probably going to divert, and then dispatch comes back and says "Your burn to destination is 2,300 pounds," and then ATC tells you "Reroute, advise ready to copy," and you're cleared to your destination via a new arrival, and you start flying there, then you're below 18,000' on vectors, and they give you another reroute to a different arrival, different runway, and your FO puts it in entirely wrong, and you want to help them but they don't understand what you're saying, and you're PF and responsible for flight-path-management, and now you're showing low landing numbers, but your FO can't figure out how to give you direct fix on the arrival, and you have to coach them through it . . . and then you land, and you're on a minimum standard turn, so you have 22 minutes to get people off and get airborne again. But your FAs are exhausted, too, and you offer to run in to get them coffee, and come back, check in on everybody. And everyone's boarded, and the gate agent is huffy, but you're good to go. You knock out the checklists and get off the gate, when you get DING: ... and now you're pulling out the QRH, calling maintenance, doing a reset procedure, and it's fine but you won't have autopilot for the next leg. And you're so tired that your head is swimming, but you can't call out fatigued every single day, can you . . . ? And on the next leg while you're trying to hold altitude, ATC tells you they need you at 340, and you tell them unable, and they tell you "Ok, well, you need to go down to 24 then." And you're bouncing along at 24,000', and there are people meowing on guard, and your FA is calling you to tell you that the passenger in 14B just managed to defecate in such a way that the ceiling of the forward lavatory is coated, and they've closed that lav, and you tell the FO to message the company to get a hazmat cleaner to meet the plane, and your FO is talking about how they just got into the United Pathway Program, but they earned it because their dad paid for flight training and the airplane he bought needed maintenance once, and nobody is going to read this wall of text, but that's kinda the fun part. It's like a little rant-themed easter egg. And if you've read this far, you're the lucky winner! I'm a nigerian princess, and I have a jillion dollars that you can have if you just pay to withdraw it, but anyway, you land at your destination, and the gate is occupied. And ops tells you no, you can't use the gate beside it, despite the fact that it's empty. So you make a PA, but ground is yelling at you to get you to move, but you've already shut down your right engine, so to turn back to the left you have to wallow around or start #2 up again. So you taxi to the back acreage, set the brake, tell the FO to wake you up when they call. But then they need to move you because they've got a heavy coming through. With a sigh, you swing around, let the heavy past, and then turn around to park in the same spot. At that point, the gate opens, and you taxi in. The rampers have just pushed the previous plane out, but as soon as they disconnect, they pull back into the gate and disappear to their lunch break. And you call operations, and operations tells you that they'll call somebody. And you make another PA, and you can hear the groans and anger even through the flight deck door. And your cabin call goes BING, and you're like "Hey, what's up?" And they're like "Hey, so what's really going on?" And you're like "I told you." And they're like "It's hot back here, and smells like sewage. And the passengers are complaining." And you check, and the ECS synoptic page says it's set to 22 degrees, but it's actually 26, and you make a PA to apologize, then recycle the bleeds to see if it kicks the fans back on. You're still waiting on rampers, and eventually they mosey out to their positions, then they all come back in to "huddle." The huddle goes on longer than it takes to sing "happy birthday" twelve times. You get a message from dispatch, asking what's going on, and a "INQUIRY" for the ground delay program. The rampers finally come out, and you go to release the brakes, and DING. "Hey, what's up?" "Yeah, we just had a passenger go into the aft lav, and now there's a line." BUT EVENTUALLY you get into the gate, 15 minutes later, get through the shutdown checklist after yelling out the window for someone to give you the "chocks in" signal, and you're finally ready to go. However, there are no wheelchairs, despite having two aisle chairs and five wheelchairs on board. You go up to check with the gate agent, and she's surprised by the request for wheelchairs or hazmat team, but she says she'll call. You get back to the plane, and find that you're now swapping to a different plane in a different terminal. At least you get to get out of this piece of crap, right? So you get to the gate with your new plane all there waiting for you, and all the passengers are giving you the stinkeye, and the gate agent is giving you the stinkeye. You get on board, start the APU, start programming the box, and the FO comes up and says "Hey, cap, looks like there's a bird strike on the right wing."

... and you still have a million legs to go.

And when you finally do get a day off, you're an absolute zombie. You can't even smile to greet friends and family. You collapse into bed around 22:00, when you get home, because you're so exhausted that it overrides your circadian rhythm, but you have to wake up at 9am because you have an appointment. The next day you get up at 1100, and it's amazing. You've finally had a good night of sleep. You stretch, yawn, and head downstairs ... but the fatigue is still there behind the eyes, and you look at the calendar only to see that you're back on reserve in sixteen hours. People around you are oblivious to how tight your timing is, and they laugh and joke while you sit there, stressed by knowing what's coming.

Again, five on, two off, five on, three off, four on, two off ... every time you submit for early release: DENIED. Gold day: Denied. Vacation: Denied. Time off request: Denied. Move reserve day: Denied. Talk with crew support: Denied.



Yeah, we have a megalomaniacal dictator and a facile band of complicit toadies who are dead set on running this place into the ground to rebuild it as a christofascist oligarchy/kleptocracy, which is an existential threat to my safety and those of my mates, who I'd do anything for.



We're literally looking at buying a sailboat and going "cruising" to wait it out.



Totally support your decision. It's not an option for us.



I doubt degree is a factor here. But I had to leave my animschool classes, which I was absolutely passionate about, due to lack of time to do the work. I was contributing to an old game project that is incredibly dear to my heart as a 3D artist, and I had to abandon my projects there—with deep apologies—due to absolute lack of time in my schedule to do any work.
One question: why are you only getting two hours of sleep if you know you are on reserve starting at 0300?
 
I've never been an advocate for interview prep that you pay for. Of course prepare yourself, but it seems like most everyone says "be yourself", and I dont really need alot of prep from an outside individual to do that. The result would be getting some weird formula to answer questions as described. But that's just me, and I'm not a volunteer interviewer.
 
One question: why are you only getting two hours of sleep if you know you are on reserve starting at 0300?
I’ll leave any story I have about early report times and rest for the bar, but I’ll say to Sasha be careful with saying you only got 2hrs of sleep. Only you know what an adequate amount of sleep is but after reading/watching how the UPS1354 investigation was done and how they zeroed in on rest, phone usage, etc it can definitely be used to paint you in a bad light if something happens.
 
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So wait, what you're saying then is "just change your circadian rhythm! It's easy, just "regulate your schedule!""?

Normal people shouldn't complain about back-to-back redeyes! The FAA shouldn't care about the concept of WOCL—pilots just need to regulate their sleep schedule. Airline management loves your point of view! It's your responsibility, after all. All you need to do is regulate your sleep schedule to work 10pm reserve for the rest of your life. Get to the airport at midnight, fly until 3pm, then go home. As long as you regulate your sleep schedule, all is good.

My suprachiasmatic nucleus doesn't agree, nor does science. You can't really change your chronotype—at most, you can work against it for a while, but like a rubber band it will always snap back. And as it stretches, you get stretched.

So what you're saying is basically "Toughen up, buttercup. You can shift your sleep schedule to work graveyard shifts for five years. It's easy. Anyone can do it. Just regulate your sleep schedule."

Or am I missing something that you're saying here? Because I'm a night person, have always been a night person, always get progressively more exhausted when I'm on a day shift, and—like a day person working graveyard shift—get more and more run-down the longer I try to do it. And that's pretty easy science.

Oh and by the way, getting up at 3am doesn't impact a WOCL because RAP doesn't impinge on a WOCL, since it's not "FDP", even though it's duty. Just like deadheads, "LIMO"s, etc, don't count as legs for table B, don't count as FDP at the end of an FDP, and the company can remove "non-movement" block time to work you longer on table A. And extensions, including extending RAP+16 by two hours, are automatic.

I'm listening, and I hear you.

I was formulating some thoughts about how I thought you absolutely needed to get yourself into a job that suited your natural night-time body rhythms as fast as you can...but then I read Mike's post where he covered that point, and so much more, way better than I was going to do.

QFT:


If you want straight advice, on the subject of whether you should quit SKW, I would say unequivocally yes. Like, yesterday. For any other good flying job, not just a few 121s

Based on what you yourself have described in this thread and others, the specific situation you are in…..DEC with plug seniority, and what that does, or in this case doesn’t, get you….and the fact that all of that is literally killing you, is all the more reason.

Because this is for sure, you have zero ability to change the company. You can’t change its policies, it’s reserve rules, it’s scheduling, how it uses reserves, how it schedules you, etc. And from what you have written and described, which I have no reason to believe isn’t true, and that it in fact is literally shortening your life in addition to making you entirely miserable, that leaves you two options:

Stay and die, either of a stroke or heart attack or something else brought on by what you are putting your body and mind through as described.

Or quit, and live.

Those are literally your only two options.

And the fatigue you feel and lack of sleep, that’s another whole can of worms. If some kind of change from being a night owl can’t be made, then you are very ripe for a fatigue related error that will end up bending/breaking your aircraft, bending/breaking yours and another aircraft, or injuring someone. You think if something like that happens, the airline and it’s toxic management is going to have your back by coming out and saying “our bad, we really did give you a sucky schedule and highly contributed to your cumulative fatigue level”. Nope. They’re going to throw you and whichever dip dunk co-pilot you have with you under the bus so fast it won’t even be funny. And they’ll hold up the flight release you signed attesting to being fully fit for duty and ready to go, as they drive the proverbial bus over you. Not to mention any danger to certificates.

The work life the airline has for you sounds utterly miserable, as you describe it. And based on the specifics you’ve written, it makes me wonder what sane person would put up with that kind of schedule; definition of insanity and all. The airline seems completely toxic for someone in your situation and place in the organization.

That is no way to live and no way to work, but that said, putting all your eggs in the majors 121 basket only, and hoping for that change only, is limiting yourself. You’re doing disservice to yourself by writing off a complete segment of aviation in painting 91 corporate with a broadbrush of perception. Not all of it is some single rich person with a private jet who expects you take their wife to Aspen at 5am with 3 hours notice. There’s a broad spectrum of the corporate world, but the point is, you end up unduly limiting yourself. Aviation is wide ranging, don’t end up let down and disappointed by needlessly limiting yourself .

There is no aviation job that is going to fit neatly into this cube of perfection and check all the boxes you want checked in how it should be created, operated, compensated, and ethically run. Any expectation of that, by anybody for any job, is a fools errand. And will only result in disappointment.

That aside, in terms of the original question of quitting or staying where you are at, my advice for that stands. Quit as soon as viably possible, by not limiting yourself. Because at the rate and depth of what you have described in numerous posts on your specific airline with regards to your specific position within it, you may not live long enough to end up being able to make that choice, if it’s indeed killing you like it sounds like it is.

I am miserable. I do not enjoy this career at this point. I don't expect anyone to have any useful advice.”

Removing yourself from the toxicity causing this, is the first step, everything else is second and third order.

Save yourself and look out for your own health, because the company sure won’t. As WacoFan once said long ago, all they see you as (and everyone) is merely motor oil.
 
One question: why are you only getting two hours of sleep if you know you are on reserve starting at 0300?
Equivalent to "Why are you only getting two hours of sleep if you're on reserve starting 2100?"

Because I have a very strong sleep cycle rhythm that doesn't let me sleep before about midnight, and that's only if I'm totally exhausted. Even if my circadian rhythm was aligned to what is common for most people, to get eight hours of sleep I'd have to be asleep at 7pm.

Oh believe me, I often go to bed around 22:00, but I just lay there and roll around fully awake and alert until 0200.

If I'm wrecked, or unsafe, I do call ftg, but I'm worried about repercussions even still.
 
I’ll leave any story I have about early report times and rest for the bar, but I’ll say to Sasha be careful with saying you only got 2hrs of sleep. Only you know what an adequate amount of sleep is but after reading/watching how the UPS1354 investigation was done and how they zeroed in on rest, phone usage, etc it can definitely be used to paint you in a bad light if something happens.
Believe me, I'm aware.

It's frustrating to me that we have to do "fatigue awareness training" which basically details how bad the airline lifestyle is for our alertness and health, tells us to get eight hours of sleep at the same time every night etc, but then at the same time get repeatedly told that it's our responsibility to ensure we get rest no matter what they schedule us for—not just for our assigned fdp, but for any fdp, with automatic extensions.

Also for everyone, kinda swamped rn. If I haven't answered your questions or responded to you it's because it would take more time or focus than I have, not that I'm ignoring you.
 
I'm listening, and I hear you.

I was formulating some thoughts about how I thought you absolutely needed to get yourself into a job that suited your natural night-time body rhythms as fast as you can...but then I read Mike's post where he covered that point, and so much more, way better than I was going to do.

QFT:
Yeah, @MikeD 's whole post was 🔥, and it's one of the few that really feels responsive to what I'm saying rather than people attempting to give advice tailored for someone else (perhaps themselves, or their younger selfes), or attempting to air their own grievances in my direction (degrees, pay, etc)

I haven't had time to respond, but I really appreciate it, and it resonates with my heart.

I still love flying. Every leg, every crew, every situation. I love my people, even the passengers. We're all a big dysfunctional family, but it's my big dysfunctional family, and I love taking care of them and getting things done safely and well.

I'm still an airplane nerd, still love warbirds, still want to fly tankers, miss flying acro.

My only complaint about my current job is the schedule and the inability to get time off. (Well, also getting hassled/threatened about sick calls when I'm legitimately sick and have doctor's notes. That's another big one. A friend of mine is grounded from flying with vertigo, possibly due to barotrauma from flying with a head cold.)

But it's a big complaint. It's a big problem. And there's no real improvement on the qx.
 
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