"This company [Colgan] treats me like crap..."

JEP said:
From an outside perspective....

Is Colgan a not so great place to work? That appears to be the view by many in the industry.

How do you make a place better? Put in First Class people that can make it better.

Seggy, Matt (aka Cruise), & Ed (Rocketman99) are three of the First Class people that I know working their ass off to make it a better place.

People can complain all they want, but the question then becomes, "What are you doing to make it better?"

Far too many people complain, but when questioned, cannot offer a solution.:dunno:
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I think the last line is going to be the hardest part of this whole process (FAA Training/Safety Meetings). I think we can identify problems with the training, individual experience levels, rest/duty regulations. So, what is the answer? I really believe the solution is going to be very expensive ($$ to the airlines, QOL to the crews) without a fundamental change to the way this industry operates and the individual business models.

I would love to see/compare the budgetary impacts that (insert regional) and ALPA come up with. Is the answer 20% increase in staffing? I dunno. What is the impact on the bottom line with more training, more hotels, more benefits? How does this expense increase transfer to the contract with the mainline? What will it really do to ticket prices? And demand?

I don't think it will be easy or done by the spring.
 
Yup.

So how do you expect people to gain entry to the type of hours they need?

Want TPIC? Well, you used to be able to go to Amflight and fly a 99 pretty quickly, but not anymore. Who knows how long that upgrade takes. Even then? You'll fly 400 hours a year on a schedule that induces fatigue.

Airnet? They furloughed pretty high up their list.

Airnow? You'll crash into a Wal-Mart.

Mountain Air Cargo? No twin turbine PIC, if you want to get into Jet Blue, well, good luck.

The regionals? Horrible first year pay.

Charter? First year pay is a little better, but you have no schedule.

Simply put the aviation industry will get it's pound of flesh no matter what entry point you take, and THAT is what needs to change. If you want to move up, you need to sacrifice and instead of making excuses of how people should act more professional, there should be a discussion going on about how to provide for a realisitic and tennable entry point into this entry that allows you to build the quality of time you need while earning a respectable wage while NOT being abused by your company.

Those three things do not exist anywhere in this industry. Now somebody is gonna come in and say, "WELL BACK IN MY DAY!" Sorry guys, it isn't your day anymore.
 
Cruise said:
Thanks for your opinion, but we're not interested!
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I'm interested in his opinion. Whether or not I agree with it is another question altogether, but I sure think he should feel free to give his side.

This place would lose much of its importance if all dissenting opinions were squashed.
 
jtrain609 said:
New CVR data released from the Colgan flight. Turns out the FO said she shouldn't be on the trip, but if she called in sick she would have to get a hotel on her own dime.

http://www.buffalonews.com/home/story/746101.html
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In reading the article, the actual quote is:

"This is one of those times that if I felt like this when I was at home there's no way I would have come all the way out here," copilot Rebecca L. Shaw said shortly before the Buffalo-bound flight departed from Newark. "But now that I'm out here ..."
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"I mean if I call in sick now I've got to put myself in a hotel until I feel better. You know, we'll see how how it feels flying," Shaw said in the transcript released by the National Transportation Safety Board. "If the pressure's just too much I you know I could always call in tomorrow; at least I'm in a hotel on the company's buck but we'll see. I'm pretty tough."
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Regardless of what gets placed on Colgan, At what point does the pilot have the responsibility to declare themselves unfit for duty? In reading those two quotes from the transcript, she is sick. Is the pressure that great that people are afraid to call in? Would 'calling in sick' have led to a different outcome? Hindsight doesn't really matter at this point. I can't recall the exact letters, but from the earliest days of ppl training, you heard the "IMSAFE" acronym.
 
IMSAFE is great, until you need to make a decision that requires you to decide between being 100% and making sure you eat.

When you squeeze people into that position, we can see what happens at least in this case eh?
 
SteveC said:
I'm interested in his opinion. Whether or not I agree with it is another question altogether, but I sure think he should feel free to give his side.

This place would lose much of its importance if all dissenting opinions were squashed.
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Yeah, I came off a bit harsh........my apologies. I do agree dissenting opinions are important. However, to hear someone who has NO CLUE as to what he's talking about belittle the work we've done, and continue to do, merits little respect, IMO. But, I also realize, it's just that...my opinion. So, sure he's entitled to his uniformed opinion....and if uninformed opinions are what you seek, just listen to mtsu, 'cause he's got 'em as far as this situation is concerned. Perhaps it was merely sarcasm and I went overboard, if that's the case, again I apologize. :dunno:
 
jtrain609 said:
IMSAFE is great, until you need to make a decision that requires you to decide between being 100% and making sure you eat.

When you squeeze people into that position, we can see what happens at least in this case eh?
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That's what sick time is for.

I called out three weeks in a row last year (3 4-day trips) and never once took a hit in the pay check, save for $200 in per diem.

Going to a commuter is the easy way to gain experience and obtain a job. There are other ways that pay more but my guess is people are like me and lazy, therefore they chose to go the easy route.
 
One of the most disturbing things in that transcript was from the CA:

"I went through Gulfstream's program 'cause uh you know it was just the best program for for my needs and and what I needed you know the timeframe that I had. you know how fast I wanted to get into the one twenty one environment and all that. so it really uh really worked out well for me."

Worked out REAL well. To all the youngins out there: SAY NO TO SJS!!!!
 
JEP said:
In reading the article, the actual quote is:

Regardless of what gets placed on Colgan, At what point does the pilot have the responsibility to declare themselves unfit for duty? In reading those two quotes from the transcript, she is sick. Is the pressure that great that people are afraid to call in? Would 'calling in sick' have led to a different outcome? Hindsight doesn't really matter at this point. I can't recall the exact letters, but from the earliest days of ppl training, you heard the "IMSAFE" acronym.
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I can completely see the co-pilot feeling between the proverbial "rock and a hard place" with this........needs to fly, but feels she can't call in. And also agree that this call is on her. She essentially....for her small part here that we're discussing......took a gamble using the lives of the pax as the bet. And lost. Again, thats in discussing her portion of the equation. To what extent her feeling less than 100% truly affected her ability to uphold her part of the crew duties, or detracted from her own normal performance (was Renslow essentially flying single pilot?), or even how it may have affected her judgement and decision making that night; we'll really never know. Could it be a tertiary or even elevate to a secondary causal factor? Sure.
 
Cruise said:
Yeah, I came off a bit harsh........my apologies. I do agree dissenting opinions are important. However, to hear someone who has NO CLUE as to what he's talking about belittle the work we've done, and continue to do, merits little respect, IMO. But, I also realize, it's just that...my opinion. So, sure he's entitled to his uniformed opinion....and if uninformed opinions are what you seek, just listen to mtsu, 'cause he's got 'em as far as this situation is concerned. Perhaps it was merely sarcasm and I went overboard, if that's the case, again I apologize. :dunno:
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I understand where you're coming from.

My take on opinions in general:

1. People should feel free to post their opinions here. Doing so generates discussion.
2. Uninformed opinions are fair game to be disproven, as well they should be. Note, I said "disproven", not "blasted". It's a very important distinction that needs to be adhered to in order to keep the "Doug's living room" vibe viable.
 
wheelsup said:
That's what sick time is for.

I called out three weeks in a row last year (3 4-day trips) and never once took a hit in the pay check, save for $200 in per diem.

Going to a commuter is the easy way to gain experience and obtain a job. There are other ways that pay more but my guess is people are like me and lazy, therefore they chose to go the easy route.
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Not all of us have paid sick time. At my company, if you call in sick, you don't get paid a dime that day. If you are too tired to fly do you just go anyway and hope for the best, or do you call in sick and skip a few meals to make up for the loss of pay? That is a decision that no pilot should ever have to make.
 
One should also consider that she was not the one at the controls that stalled the airplane into the ground. Would whoever that was on reserve that would have replaced her, over ridden the Captain, or better yet, had she not been sick, would she have done anything differently, ie. taken the airplane over, or verbally slapped him upside the head to add the power, and increase airspeed.
 
jtrain609 said:
To put it in perspective for you, if I had actually made it to second year pay at Express while holding a line, I'd make more as a second year FO than I would have as a Metro captain at Amflight based in Salt Lake City (CVG guys can make some bank, before KLB jumps in). The problem is getting through to that point.
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That's a HUGE generalization, though. Not all freight companies pay the same. I could make more as a first-year freight guy where I worked than I could as a THIRD year FO at most regionals. And I flew for an extremely safe freight company, with an outstanding safety record!
 
mtsu_av8er said:
That's a HUGE generalization, though. Not all freight companies pay the same. I could make more as a first-year freight guy where I worked than I could as a THIRD year FO at most regionals. And I flew for an extremely safe freight company, with an outstanding safety record!
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Flight Express is one of the best paying small freight operators out there to be sure.

At the same time, how often were guys moving from the Baron to Southwest? You used to be able to go to Airnet, upgrade into the Lear and go to Netjets. Now? It's a little harder with Airnet furloughing guys.
 
It would seem that Regional Airlines being able to flex their hiring standards into a low enough point enables them to pick up the youngest and the hungriest.

Those who have not yet built any kind of competitive resume are the easiest prey for those willing to pander to the lowest cost pilot possible.

End result? Those looking for a way into a paying industry position on turbine equipment are too blinded by ambition or career hunger to assess things clearly. They rationalize the sacrifices they make, and do so because they are either unaware or underestimate the damage they do to the profession as a whole.

Like Seaaviator said, we don't self-police ourselves. The problem is fairly apparent- we allow our highest levels to be devalued by letting our lowest levels to be perpetually dragged down.

In other words, it's time to stop trying to raise the roof while the managers are sawing the floors out from under us. We need hard and fast legal minimums to apply to the 121 world, and they need to exceed the minimums required to do other types of commercial flying.

If we really want to raise the minimum standards of compensation, we need to raise the minimum standards of employment, plain and simple.

There are FAA roadshows going on nationwide right now- there's one in DFW on Thursday. I'm going. The roadshows are for fact-finding about the truth in the regional airline industry. Stand up, speak up, and things just might happen.
 
OldTownPilot said:
One should also consider that she was not the one at the controls that stalled the airplane into the ground. Would whoever that was on reserve that would have replaced her, over ridden the Captain, or better yet, had she not been sick, would she have done anything differently, ie. taken the airplane over, or verbally slapped him upside the head to add the power, and increase airspeed.
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I am in no way inferring that her not calling in sick caused the accident or would have prevented it. Accidents are a chain and this was one point in that chain. We could play the what if game all night. It could have created a delay, who knows. My point/question deals more with the overriding thought that, " I have to this, I have to do that, or I can't do this because....."
 
OldTownPilot said:
One should also consider that she was not the one at the controls that stalled the airplane into the ground. Would whoever that was on reserve that would have replaced her, over ridden the Captain, or better yet, had she not been sick, would she have done anything differently, ie. taken the airplane over, or verbally slapped him upside the head to add the power, and increase airspeed.
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I think simply saying "airspeed" would have been enough. No heroic rescue, or theatrics needed
 
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