"This company [Colgan] treats me like crap..."

[jtrain609]

The captain could remove them if he didn't think they were up to the task of operating the aircraft safely.

I've had captains tell the crew (me and the FA) that we were holding the flight until we all got some lunch, and if we didn't want to eat, we were not interested in completing the trip. Thus, we all ate.

I liked working with those guys, they made sure we all got taken care of.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

You guys are in the middle of negotiations too right?

And the FOM is approved by the FAA?

Sounds like a safety of flight issue to me. These documents are approved for a very specific reason, to protect our passengers - not our companies. Might be time to protect them.

Our memos are also "approved" by the FAA. Therefore they are considered mandatory until the pertinent temporary revision or bulletin is issued.

Which is FAA approved? They don't have a leg to stand on.

See above.

In reading the article, the actual quote is:





Regardless of what gets placed on Colgan, At what point does the pilot have the responsibility to declare themselves unfit for duty? In reading those two quotes from the transcript, she is sick. Is the pressure that great that people are afraid to call in? Would 'calling in sick' have led to a different outcome? Hindsight doesn't really matter at this point. I can't recall the exact letters, but from the earliest days of ppl training, you heard the "IMSAFE" acronym.

I lost the quote you took from the transcript, but the gist was she didn't want to get a hotel but she didn't feel sick on her way out.... at Pinnacle (sister company to Colgan), here's how that could play out:

I commute in from California to Atlanta to fly a trip. When I get there, I realize that I feel like crap and that I should call in sick. I don't want to pay for a hotel room, and there are flights back to California (where I live and can rest up). I should go to CA and rest. I call in sick, hop a flight back home.

A few days later I am called in and I am presented a termination letter for "pass travel fraud" ie "using benefits while 'supposedly sick'". There are a bunch of ways this could play out, but this is the most likely scenario based on who's around when you need to call to get the "trip home" approved....

 

[jtrain609]

Our memos are also "approved" by the FAA. Therefore they are considered mandatory until the pertinent temporary revision or bulletin is issued.




See above.



I lost the quote you took from the transcript, but the gist was she didn't want to get a hotel but she didn't feel sick on her way out.... at Pinnacle (sister company to Colgan), here's how that could play out:

I commute in from California to Atlanta to fly a trip. When I get there, I realize that I feel like crap and that I should call in sick. I don't want to pay for a hotel room, and there are flights back to California (where I live and can rest up). I should go to CA and rest. I call in sick, hop a flight back home.

A few days later I am called in and I am presented a termination letter for "pass travel fraud" ie "using benefits while 'supposedly sick'". There are a bunch of ways this could play out, but this is the most likely scenario based on who's around when you need to call to get the "trip home" approved....

That happened to me once. I banged out in the middle of a trip because I kept getting sinus blocks. I waited until I was at a hub, banged out in the middle of a four day and hopped a flight to DTW (where Emily was at the time). Saw an ENT about it, he said I couldn't go back to work for 3 weeks due to a massive sinus infection. I called scheduling, told them the news and that was that.

 

[Cruise]

ehh, I wouldn't say that the people I know that work there are Crap. As for the others? Can't really say as I don't know them.

Again, the people I know that work there have been trying to make it better even when they were hiring. I doubt they doing it because they are 'feeling' stuck.

Well I am sure there are people here that don't view them as favorable, as witnessed by your comments (which you are entitled to). If these people that are employed there were not members of JC I cannot say how Colgan would be viewed. The reason for that would be the information that they have been able to provide just wouldn't be there. People would have to make a decision without all of the information.

Thanks! There are many of us working tirelessly to improve the situation, due in large part to the help of ALPA. Segs and I were on the Organizing Committee, along w/ SmittyB, Sherpa, L-16B, and others...and we all continue to serve our pilot group. There are still more of us here on the JC serve in various rolls within the ALPA structure...people like Rocketman, Dingo, Amorris, v1valarob.....and probably more that I've missed.

Things are improving here, and will continue to do so, thanks to the hard work we are doing.

Then, you've got people that think it's great to give the above three guys crap because they were able to bring a union on property. An act in which they hope will improve conditions for their workplace.



It actually doesn't even appear to be input. Just rather another quick jab without any substance.



Where was the dissenting opinion? I saw no opinion in Lloyd's post regarding Colgan and ALPA. Just some quick claim, highly sarcastic I might add, that simply because the company has a union now everything will be taken care of. Those of us who have seen these post from Lloyd before know it's not about providing an opinion.



Which, gets back, if someone is actually going to provide an opinion and some substance that's one thing - but you're going to have trouble convincing some very hard working men and women that what he said was even an opinion.

EXACTLY. Thanks for the support! You just explained it better than I did.

My comments had nothing to do with what Lloyd posted, simply with the response generated which was, paraphrased, "keep your opinion to yourself". All of my comments were based off of that and have nothing to do with whether the original post had any worthwhile content or not.

I'm trying to work the big picture of how the website operates. You guys can discuss the details all you want as long as everyone realizes that the smart move is to debate ideas, not slam people.

Again, my apologies. I should have said "I" wasn't interested in his uninformed opinion, not "we're not interested." Now if there had been something of substance, I'm more than open to hear it. But this certainly doesn't appear to be the case.



AND, Of course, I understand this is Doug's living room, and respect that.

 

[surreal1221]

My comments had nothing to do with what Lloyd posted, simply with the response generated which was, paraphrased, "keep your opinion to yourself". All of my comments were based off of that and have nothing to do with whether the original post had any worthwhile content or not.

I'm trying to work the big picture of how the website operates. You guys can discuss the details all you want as long as everyone realizes that the smart move is to debate ideas, not slam people.

Let me quote myself in a PM that I just sent another member (unrelated topic):



Big picture stuff.

Well then, it'd be nice if the quick jabs that contribute nothing but discourse amongst the community would also be addressed.

But, as you said, you're not looking at the cause - just the effect - right?

I think it's been made quite clear that we are all welcoming to new opinions and input, but it's when the statements lack either and that it's quite clear that the post is made simply to ruffle up a couple people's feathers and detract from the discussion that we then challenge the "opinions" or whatever you wish to call them.

I understand you're trying to do the big picture, but I wouldn't expect you to ignore the small issues that are causing you to look at the big picture.

 

[ppragman]

It is easy to blame the company it seems. Colgan gets its fair share of criticism (and rightly so it sounds like). Seggy and the rest that are working hard to make it a better place is an admirable thing and I admire them for that.

But...

at what point does the pilot take responsibility for their actions? She says she was sick/tired and would have called off the flight, but didn't want to spring for a hotel room. That is great - she did something she didn't feel good doing in order to save a hundred bucks or so. I understand she was only making $18k...but it sure seems like she was valuing her money, or lack thereof, ahead of listening to her inner-instincts and calling in sick/fatigued. The minute you accept the job, at whatever pay level you agree, you accept the responsibility of being a professional. If you are sick/fatigued and you accept a flight in order to save on the hotel room...then I see that as an error in judgement. If you are sick/fatigued and take a flight because you are intimidated by crew scheduling...then I see that as an error in judgement. Perhaps part of the reason for pilots getting bullied is the fact that many of them allow themselves to be bullied. Colgan may be a sewer, but nobody is forced to work there. If someone accepts the responsibility of sitting in the front seat, I would expect as a passenger that they make an honest assesment of their ability to complete the flight in a safe manner. If she felt sick or fatigued and didn't call off the flight I see it as more her failing than Colgans I guess.

This is what I've been saying for the last six months (or however long its been since 3407). Everyone says I'm crazy, but to be honest, I don't really see it any differently. You can either man up, and put your neck on the line and drop the flight, or you can take your chances making a smoking hole. If you're really that tired, you've gotta call in and say "hey, no mas." We'd say the same thing about booze. If you stayed out a little too late, and had a little too much fun, and weren't capable of making your morning run safely, would you do it? Nope, you'd call dispatch, and tell them you've got the flu. If you don't have the juevos to do that, then you probably shouldn't be flying. But that's just me, ymmv.

Yeah, we all make bad decisions in regard to fatigue, and yeah, no one is perfect, that being said, you can't regulate good judgment. You can try, but it won't happen. Change duty periods, change crew training programs, change everything, and you won't change a thing until you take, "get er' done" out of the pilots lexicon, and replace it with the more professional, "safely complete the mission."

We see it a lot in this profession. Some body posted a statistic awhile back (too lazy to find it myself) that a very large portion of maintenance discrepancies occurred at maintenance bases. There's a problem with this. Somebody posted some other statistics about the amount of people commuting at various airlines (AirTran was one I remember with over 50% commuters or something ATN/PCL will surely have the stat), then we all see the data regarding pay, or lack thereof in the regional world. If it's really that bad, then don't work there. Don't take the trips. Be a professional. Make real decisions. And no, the choice of crew meal (though an incredibly important one) is not a real decision.

-Pat

 

[ppragman]

Yup.

So how do you expect people to gain entry to the type of hours they need?

Want TPIC? Well, you used to be able to go to Amflight and fly a 99 pretty quickly, but not anymore. Who knows how long that upgrade takes. Even then? You'll fly 400 hours a year on a schedule that induces fatigue.

Airnet? They furloughed pretty high up their list.

Airnow? You'll crash into a Wal-Mart.

Mountain Air Cargo? No twin turbine PIC, if you want to get into Jet Blue, well, good luck.

The regionals? Horrible first year pay.

Charter? First year pay is a little better, but you have no schedule.

Simply put the aviation industry will get it's pound of flesh no matter what entry point you take, and THAT is what needs to change. If you want to move up, you need to sacrifice and instead of making excuses of how people should act more professional, there should be a discussion going on about how to provide for a realisitic and tennable entry point into this entry that allows you to build the quality of time you need while earning a respectable wage while NOT being abused by your company.

Those three things do not exist anywhere in this industry. Now somebody is gonna come in and say, "WELL BACK IN MY DAY!" Sorry guys, it isn't your day anymore.

Turbine PIC isn't everything. I think as professionals we need to reevaluate what we want from this industry. You did, and realized the industry wouldn't offer it.

People seem to think that the only way to go in the long haul is to work to the majors, when statistically there are a lot of old pilots driving around trying to make a buck in other fields in aviation. Frankly, I think we put the wrong emphasis on hours, turbine time, and types when we should be thinking, "how am I going to be able to raise a family with this job?" "Am I going to be able to accomplish the things I want in life if I take this particular job?" "How will this job affect my ability to succeed as a person?" Really, at the end of the day, we pilots are goal oriented type a personalities on average. The more they wave that carrot out in front of us, the more poop we'll put in our mouths to get to the next level. We're playing the game wrong, and the people who develop the pay scales know it.

 

[SteveC]

Well then, it'd be nice if the quick jabs that contribute nothing but discourse amongst the community would also be addressed.

You might want to consider the full ramifications of that request.

But, as you said, you're not looking at the cause - just the effect - right?

No, that's not what I said.

I think it's been made quite clear that we are all welcoming to new opinions and input, but it's when the statements lack either and that it's quite clear that the post is made simply to ruffle up a couple people's feathers and detract from the discussion...

Remember that it is only your opinion that his intent was to simply ruffle feathers. I think that he actually was trying to make a point. Be very careful about assuming intent when using this media.

...that we then challenge the "opinions" or whatever you wish to call them.

Perfectly acceptable. In fact, that is exactly what I've been promoting all along. Go ahead and question the opinions or thoughts that others put out there. My objection was when he was told to keep his opinion to himself, i.e. telling him not to post. Good to see we're on the same page.

I understand you're trying to do the big picture, but I wouldn't expect you to ignore the small issues that are causing you to look at the big picture.

I didn't miss the small issue. The problem was not in what Lloyd posted because he did it without getting personal or insulting. The problem was when he was told to shut his trap simply because what he posted was not in agreement with someone else's beliefs. That was the small issue. The big picture is that we are trying to promote the free exchange of ideas in a "Doug's living room" environment.

This would be a dull place indeed if we all thought the same.

 

[kellwolf]

Our memos are also "approved" by the FAA. Therefore they are considered mandatory until the pertinent temporary revision or bulletin is issued.

Actually, I don't think they are. I don't see an FAA inspectors signature anywhere that says our memos are improved to supersede information in our FOM. I'm not required to carry memos around in my flight bag, either. If they want to change a policy, ammend the FOM. I can't very well carry my laptop around to reference a memo in my new "virtual v-file."

After spending 30 minutes over at the FSDO yesterday, I'm of the opinion that the FAA is a little out of touch with what's REALLY happening at Pinnacle. When I mentioned I was on reserve, they said "Oh, so you're not flying much, huh?" Apparently, management has them thinking reserves are hardly flying rather than getting abused daily.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Memos aren't approved by the FAA. Bulletins are, if they're stamped/signed by the inspector.

Memos aren't even accepted by the FAA. The FAA generally speaking doesn't have anything to do with company memos.

 

[SpiceWeasel]

Memos aren't approved by the FAA. Bulletins are, if they're stamped/signed by the inspector.

Memos aren't even accepted by the FAA. The FAA generally speaking doesn't have anything to do with company memos.

Hmm management lied again. Either that, or some uninformed pilot continued the uninforming by telling me that was the case.

 

[pullup]

Well then, it'd be nice if the quick jabs that contribute nothing but discourse amongst the community would also be addressed.

But, as you said, you're not looking at the cause - just the effect - right?

I think it's been made quite clear that we are all welcoming to new opinions and input, but it's when the statements lack either and that it's quite clear that the post is made simply to ruffle up a couple people's feathers and detract from the discussion that we then challenge the "opinions" or whatever you wish to call them.

I understand you're trying to do the big picture, but I wouldn't expect you to ignore the small issues that are causing you to look at the big picture.

OMG, is this seriously coming from you?

 

[surreal1221]

OMG, is this seriously coming from you?

lol - nice of you to jump into a conversation that has ended.

 

[kellwolf]

Hmm management lied again. Either that, or some uninformed pilot continued the uninforming by telling me that was the case.

I'd go with the second one. If memos were approved by the FAA, they wouldn't be saying "Check your virtual v-file for the latest memo." They'd be REQUIRED to give each pilot a paper copy so they can carry it around with their FOM/CFM until the revision came out.

Memos here are just another way management scares people into doing their will.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Hmm management lied again. Either that, or some uninformed pilot continued the uninforming by telling me that was the case.

Somewhere on my computer I have a memo from Mesa Chief Pilot telling us that since the airplanes are getting kind of dirty to please fly through rainclouds.

 

[Firebird2XC]

Somewhere on my computer I have a memo from Mesa Chief Pilot telling us that since the airplanes are getting kind of dirty to please fly through rainclouds.

Haha... that's funny. I gotta give you points for that one, you made me laugh for real.