surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Is this RM?
"This company [Colgan] treats me like crap..."
- Thread starter jtrain609
- Start date
Is this RM?
Which is a very important point. It send the message that "well....things must not be that bad if all these people are stepping all over each other to get there..." and gives no leverage to the pilot group to make good changes. For they'll just get the standard Ornstein response "why raise your pay and improve working conditions when there's a ton a resumes to replace you"; and to the media, these same CEOs can also say how things aren't so bad because so many want to come there.
We're our own worst enemy.....
poser765
Well-Known Member
We are...and how can the problem be fixed without screwing the up and comings. Ok people bitch about regional pay. Yeah it sucks but believe it or not I look forward to it because it's more than I make now instructing. Ok so I shouldn't be instructing for less than what I think I am worth. If I follow that paradigm I wouldn't be instructing at all. Short of sacrificing my career before it begins for the sake of the people already there what are people in position supposed to do? Not trying to argue anything, just legitimately want to know.
Unlimited wannabes eyes glazed over with no experience and airline managers intoxicated with minimum wage robots will prevent the career from ever coming back. MPL will be the next and final blow.
Pilots have not and will not police themselves like the AMA, ADA, etc does.
Flying is not the only career like this. Modeling, acting, music, sports, some sales positions, etc hold out the illusion of very lucrative and rewarding careers while delivering very little in return for investment required. Pilots however are a little different. They refuse to believe the investment, sacrifice, will not someday pay off. It takes them a very long time to figure out the gig is filled with hollow promises. Usually it's too late to retool into a substantial career so they end up in retirement with nothing. This is why the fly-til-u-die (aka 65) was a good thing. It reduces the number who will be forced to become Walmart greeters in retirement.
Pilots have not and will not police themselves like the AMA, ADA, etc does.
Flying is not the only career like this. Modeling, acting, music, sports, some sales positions, etc hold out the illusion of very lucrative and rewarding careers while delivering very little in return for investment required. Pilots however are a little different. They refuse to believe the investment, sacrifice, will not someday pay off. It takes them a very long time to figure out the gig is filled with hollow promises. Usually it's too late to retool into a substantial career so they end up in retirement with nothing. This is why the fly-til-u-die (aka 65) was a good thing. It reduces the number who will be forced to become Walmart greeters in retirement.
subpilot
Squawking 7600
The best advice I can give you is don't aim for the lowball regional. Aim for the top tier players (relatively speaking, of course). Maybe this means having to instruct for another year or two but if only the better companies are receiving applications then the bottom feeders will be forced to catch up and the ball will start to roll the other way.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
Colgan is ALPA now. The problem has been solved.
TUCKnTRUCK
That guy
I think I have said before, even at colgan, if you know and fly the book you will not get in trouble.
When I came, the check/training airmen perpetuated the rumor/ idea that if you called out sick or fatigued, dot would make your life hell. This spawned a corporate culture of get er done. It was rampart, gate agents at outstations calling bogus weather, mx ops checking the he'll out of things, pushed work cards etc. This happened because we let them do it. Why did we let them do it? Cooperate and graduate.
I have NEVER been so much as called by a chief pilot for using any protection afforded me by my manual. Much rather simply using the outlined procedure has worked for me.
Taking a trip because she didn't want to pay to spend the night at her base is not cool, we all know sometimes you have to suck it up and pay the meter.
Just so long as you know what to reference, when you call you will not get in trouble. For colgan guys, I'd start with section 3
When I came, the check/training airmen perpetuated the rumor/ idea that if you called out sick or fatigued, dot would make your life hell. This spawned a corporate culture of get er done. It was rampart, gate agents at outstations calling bogus weather, mx ops checking the he'll out of things, pushed work cards etc. This happened because we let them do it. Why did we let them do it? Cooperate and graduate.
I have NEVER been so much as called by a chief pilot for using any protection afforded me by my manual. Much rather simply using the outlined procedure has worked for me.
Taking a trip because she didn't want to pay to spend the night at her base is not cool, we all know sometimes you have to suck it up and pay the meter.
Just so long as you know what to reference, when you call you will not get in trouble. For colgan guys, I'd start with section 3
etflies
Keeping calm, Chiving on.
Without people on furlough? I can think of one of the "good" regional carriers without people on furlough, SkyWest. I may be missing one or two here, so please correct me if I'm wrong.
Poser made a very valid point, I'm in the same boat he is. I find it interesting that it is acceptable for everybody else to go fly for a regional, but when they get there suddenly it becomes an issue when those behind them are willing to do the same thing, for the same price. What an interesting paradigm shift.
At any rate, I'm getting off topic, my apologies!
Cessna414JJB
Unknown Member
Don't blame Colgan for it. Blame the pilots who run their heads in trying to get in at 18.9K per year. Don't blame Colgan for doing what EVERY other airline does, and has to do in a bottomless, deregulated farce of a market. Blame the FAA for lack of oversight, and the customer for being shortsighted and out of his mind trying to save a lousy buck. A cab driver makes more money than a 1st year F.O. at nearly ANY regional. Nonetheless, I keep seeing resumes of low time pilots, looking for a "entry" into this "career" with the goal - - > REGIONAL AIRLINE. Explain that to me. Please.
The fundamental change and shift in attitude will not come from your average "BS by the Cup or in a Bowl?" politician, not from unions and not from Allah himself.
Fact is:
They are flooded with resumes & applications.
ATP is still cranking out students, fitting in perfectly.
This will not change, no matter what we think "collectively".
It is way to easy to argue that someone "had to accept" the money that was offered, otherwise there would not have been food on the table. It is way to easy to argue that what was offered had to be accepted because otherwise this individual would sit at home and suck on his/ her thumb. It's just cheap justification for being a SJS kid, thinking of having a shot at the big iron one day.
Well - if we woke up, we would notice that the chances for big iron are 15000 - 20000 : 1.
For every single airline pilot with a good attitude there are up 20.000 willing to do the job for next to nothing.
WE set the standards. WE, WE, WE!!! Nobody else does. It's us.
Not them, not anyone else. The number of SJS people is tenfold of those of us who wish to actually have a career. Get over it. Or out.
The Colgan people I know, are not appearing to be treated like crap.
Because this is just another duststorm in a coffecup, I'll stop wasting my time typing here, just rest assured that not a thing is about to change as long as our "professionals" keep selling out for peanuts.
The fundamental change and shift in attitude will not come from your average "BS by the Cup or in a Bowl?" politician, not from unions and not from Allah himself.
Fact is:
They are flooded with resumes & applications.
ATP is still cranking out students, fitting in perfectly.
This will not change, no matter what we think "collectively".
It is way to easy to argue that someone "had to accept" the money that was offered, otherwise there would not have been food on the table. It is way to easy to argue that what was offered had to be accepted because otherwise this individual would sit at home and suck on his/ her thumb. It's just cheap justification for being a SJS kid, thinking of having a shot at the big iron one day.
Well - if we woke up, we would notice that the chances for big iron are 15000 - 20000 : 1.
For every single airline pilot with a good attitude there are up 20.000 willing to do the job for next to nothing.
WE set the standards. WE, WE, WE!!! Nobody else does. It's us.
Not them, not anyone else. The number of SJS people is tenfold of those of us who wish to actually have a career. Get over it. Or out.
The Colgan people I know, are not appearing to be treated like crap.
Because this is just another duststorm in a coffecup, I'll stop wasting my time typing here, just rest assured that not a thing is about to change as long as our "professionals" keep selling out for peanuts.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
From an outside perspective....
Is Colgan a not so great place to work? That appears to be the view by many in the industry.
How do you make a place better? Put in First Class people that can make it better.
Seggy, Matt (aka Cruise), & Ed (Rocketman99) are three of the First Class people that I know working their ass off to make it a better place.
People can complain all they want, but the question then becomes, "What are you doing to make it better?"
Far too many people complain, but when questioned, cannot offer a solution.:dunno:
Is Colgan a not so great place to work? That appears to be the view by many in the industry.
How do you make a place better? Put in First Class people that can make it better.
Seggy, Matt (aka Cruise), & Ed (Rocketman99) are three of the First Class people that I know working their ass off to make it a better place.
People can complain all they want, but the question then becomes, "What are you doing to make it better?"
Far too many people complain, but when questioned, cannot offer a solution.:dunno:
seagull
Well-Known Member
I am not trying to defend Colgan here, but could someone tell me which airline, anywhere in the world, is going to pay for your hotel room if you call in sick in your domicile, now or in the past? I am trying to remember if there was even such a provision with the "regional domiciles" at one time, but I don't recall anything like that.
WacoFan
Bigly
It is easy to blame the company it seems. Colgan gets its fair share of criticism (and rightly so it sounds like). Seggy and the rest that are working hard to make it a better place is an admirable thing and I admire them for that.
But...
at what point does the pilot take responsibility for their actions? She says she was sick/tired and would have called off the flight, but didn't want to spring for a hotel room. That is great - she did something she didn't feel good doing in order to save a hundred bucks or so. I understand she was only making $18k...but it sure seems like she was valuing her money, or lack thereof, ahead of listening to her inner-instincts and calling in sick/fatigued. The minute you accept the job, at whatever pay level you agree, you accept the responsibility of being a professional. If you are sick/fatigued and you accept a flight in order to save on the hotel room...then I see that as an error in judgement. If you are sick/fatigued and take a flight because you are intimidated by crew scheduling...then I see that as an error in judgement. Perhaps part of the reason for pilots getting bullied is the fact that many of them allow themselves to be bullied. Colgan may be a sewer, but nobody is forced to work there. If someone accepts the responsibility of sitting in the front seat, I would expect as a passenger that they make an honest assesment of their ability to complete the flight in a safe manner. If she felt sick or fatigued and didn't call off the flight I see it as more her failing than Colgans I guess.
But...
at what point does the pilot take responsibility for their actions? She says she was sick/tired and would have called off the flight, but didn't want to spring for a hotel room. That is great - she did something she didn't feel good doing in order to save a hundred bucks or so. I understand she was only making $18k...but it sure seems like she was valuing her money, or lack thereof, ahead of listening to her inner-instincts and calling in sick/fatigued. The minute you accept the job, at whatever pay level you agree, you accept the responsibility of being a professional. If you are sick/fatigued and you accept a flight in order to save on the hotel room...then I see that as an error in judgement. If you are sick/fatigued and take a flight because you are intimidated by crew scheduling...then I see that as an error in judgement. Perhaps part of the reason for pilots getting bullied is the fact that many of them allow themselves to be bullied. Colgan may be a sewer, but nobody is forced to work there. If someone accepts the responsibility of sitting in the front seat, I would expect as a passenger that they make an honest assesment of their ability to complete the flight in a safe manner. If she felt sick or fatigued and didn't call off the flight I see it as more her failing than Colgans I guess.
jtrain609
Antisocial Monster
You're assuming she had the cash for the hotel room.
If you are in a professional position, you should be compensated as such eh?
And I know, "Well if nobody took the jobs, then we wouldn't be here!"
The sacrifice has to come somewhere. Either you put yourself at some more risk to getting killed flying freight (and still get paid pretty badly for the most part), you go into the military and put yourself in a bunch of dangerous situations on a regular basis, you get abused at a charter outfit, or you take the low pay at a regional. Simply put there are no entry points where some amount of large sacrifice isn't required to start.
To put it in perspective for you, if I had actually made it to second year pay at Express while holding a line, I'd make more as a second year FO than I would have as a Metro captain at Amflight based in Salt Lake City (CVG guys can make some bank, before KLB jumps in). The problem is getting through to that point.
In the end, I've now had four years since graduating college, and I haven't had a W-2 crack $20,000 yet. It is what it is.
If you are in a professional position, you should be compensated as such eh?
And I know, "Well if nobody took the jobs, then we wouldn't be here!"
The sacrifice has to come somewhere. Either you put yourself at some more risk to getting killed flying freight (and still get paid pretty badly for the most part), you go into the military and put yourself in a bunch of dangerous situations on a regular basis, you get abused at a charter outfit, or you take the low pay at a regional. Simply put there are no entry points where some amount of large sacrifice isn't required to start.
To put it in perspective for you, if I had actually made it to second year pay at Express while holding a line, I'd make more as a second year FO than I would have as a Metro captain at Amflight based in Salt Lake City (CVG guys can make some bank, before KLB jumps in). The problem is getting through to that point.
In the end, I've now had four years since graduating college, and I haven't had a W-2 crack $20,000 yet. It is what it is.
seagull
Well-Known Member
It's a different issue. When I lived in NYC, there were many F/A's based there who lived in Manhattan. They did not commute, but did have a lot to a room, and they made less than this F/O did, even adjusted for inflation. They made it work. Most probably commuted, to a certain extent, but some lived there. They made it work. While the pay should be fixed, there is a personal responsibility aspect for all of us, and the choice to commute doesn't change that.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Thanks for your input.
ALPA has done more in here, in less than a year, to work toward improvements and raising the bar....than anything done in the last 5 (probably since Colgan's beginning, actually) without ALPA. But go ahead and continue w/ your miserable little jabs.....'cause you think you know everything. Thanks for your opinion, but we're not interested!
WacoFan
Bigly
Sure, you should be compensated as a professional. I also am of the camp (like Sully I guess) that says "Highly qualified people will stop aspiring to be airline pilots because the pay blows and you are not adequately compensated for your education expense/dues paying". It is a sin that she was not in a position to get a hotel room, but is it Colgan's fault or is it her fault for accepting the job? Colgan is going to pay market-rate for a pilot - just like every other regional (or major for that matter). The FO accepted the job, with the pay and work rules that were in place. The FO made the decision to commute coast to coast. The FO made the decision to accept a flight that she didn't feel physically well enough to take. These are all decisions SHE made that were not forced upon her. I agree that the regionals blow, and I can't personally understand why anyone would want to work for them, but if you DO work for them you should try to conduct yourself as if you are flying for SWA or UPS. I have seen many people state "I will act professional when I am paid like one". I seriously doubt that is the case - if the gold-standard job is UPS making $200k annually, and you only make $20k annually does that mean you will only be 10% professional? You either are or you are not. The regionals need to be improved for sure - and I am horrified that regionals are becoming majors (RAH) - but as long as people accept these jobs things will not change...but that doesn't alleviate the necessity of professional behavior in the cockpit.