Thinking about joining Pan Am...

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Are you done insulting me?

I have nothing against going to an FBO but I do not agree that you get the same training from an FBO than you do from an academy. I know because I've done both and I have experience with both. I am not arguing quality of training here. There are some CFI's that have a billion hours that have a whole lot more knowledge than I do that work at Ma and Pa FBO's. The quality may very well be the same, here is why I think the Academy training gives you more for MORE money:

1. Brand new aircraft; this may not be important to most but it was for me because I was sick of planes breaking down all the time and I was wasting my time waiting for them to be fixed.

2. Airline style training; again may not be important to others but it was to me. Pan Am has a bi-annual meeting with executives from many different airlines that meet and discuss what type of skills they would like to see in pilots when they come to groundschool. How many FBO's teach Vref and Vtarget airspeeds for approaches? Mine didn't.

3. A jet transition course. This course is set up to mimic an airline groundschool. It is the most I have ever studied including college. It was brutal. But, now I know what to expect and I feel like I have a heads up on others that might be in the same groundschool as myself. This course is taught by airline pilots not by Joe Schmo.

4. Job placement. Academies are able to set up agreements with airlines to hire their graduates with lower times than others. It happens on a regular basis here at Pan Am.

5. Multi time. I know FBO's have twin engine planes but most academies have a program set up where you can do line oriented flight training. This gives you experience flying all over the country in a two crew environment honing your skills. Not to mention that as an instructor I have over 500 multi hours now. That is virtually unheard of from anyone instructing at an FBO.

There are may other reasons I chose to go to an academy. I paid a premium price for the options I listed above. I found those important to me. They might not be for others. So to some things up PERPETUAL, the FBO route is perfectly fine but don't go bashing others who chose to go this route. To all his own.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agree with everyone putting insults aside and sticking to facts.

PanAmpilot, if you feel you've gotten your money's worth so far with the training program you're gone through, then who can say you've gotten a bad deal? You seem happy with it, and as you say, to all his own.

This just proves that FBOs are fine for some, depending on the FBO; academies fine for others.

Good luck in the endeavors,

MD

 

[perpetual]

PanAmPilot:

1.) Brand new aircraft are not necessary (you pay more money for what?
A nicer coat of paint? (and just as an example I Bet you if there is any
"problem maintence wise" it has so little of an effect on ones training progress that your point is null.

2.)Airline Style what? Im sorry but Pan Am (fort pierce at least) was
very straightforward and nothing special. (sure there were memory aids and "flows".
But you know what? Any single person can "practice" a flow for crm

3.) Jet transistion course? Non loggable Time in a Non Level anything sim?
Microsoft flight sim 2004 can give me that for 60 bucks, why should I spend over 7 grand?
(PS, I've read over various 737 systems manuals, ops specs for company policy, and other
various "airline" procedural items. Pan am isnt even close.

4.)ahh Connections, well sure everyone's got them at some place, some time,
somewhere. But you know you can get the same job with out "pan am" just as the other
"thousands and thousands" of pilots have done

5.)Multi-time? Okay your being silly now,.. I highly suggest that you take a look
at a place called "ari-ben" Dont take my word for it .. ((take it from pan am instructors themselves))
who have come "over" in order to build time. It seems pan am hasnt fully provided them that twin time now does it?
Oh and as an Aside, How much does your multi time cost anyhow? Twice as much? ahh

Now lets clarify:

Im not mocking you my friend, so dont think that, but what I am merely showing you is the "cheaper way" to acheive the same goals.

I know that you will differ because everyone has different experiences, but facts are facts. Academies cost far more.

 

[panampilot]

Perpetual you're obviously the kind of guy that has to have the last say on everything. I don't agree with anything you have said in your last post and I especially don't have the time to continue to fight back and forth.

So I'm going to agree to disagree, I suggest you do the same.

 

[cfi25]

I attended Pan Am and completed their entire program flawlessly. After finishing their program and going through their new instructor indoctrination, it took over 6 months to be called back to instruct. They could have cared less what I did that time - they already had my 60 grand. When you are at the academy, you are not treated like a customer. They do not address student's concerns. If you complain about anything, you will not be hired on as an instructor, so you can't complain. Just an example. There is no library. An academy who is self-proclaiming itself the "Harvard of aviation" has no library???

Are you kidding me????

And instructors getting multi-time???

I know instructors who have been there over a year who have not instructed for ten minutes in a Seminole. Others have been instructing in the twins for hundreds of hours. Not fair - too much politics.

And the ACE program was a 7,000 waste. I have nothing to show for it. Nothing in my logbook. I was great in that darn sim over a year ago. I new it like a pro. What good does that do me now. I need to instruct in a single for about a year to build my hours to be anywhere remotely near hireable. Good thing I paid 7 Grand for 30 non-logabble hours in a CRJ FTD. Its cockpit would look foreign to me now after over a year since the program. The academy requires you to do the ACE program if you want to instruct there. It is their way of getting a few extra "free" thousand from you. By free, I mean that now that they have the sim, its operating cost is closs to nill. Why don't they let us do the ACE after we have already instructed at the academy and built up our hours to be close to airline ready - as a final finishing touch to our skills.

Turnover is ridiculously high. Not because people can't hack it, but because people can't stand the BS. One month I was there, we lost over 20 students. In about a year there the amount of students who left was more unbelievable.

Ask admissions to answer you this. How many people who have gone through the entire program at FPR from start to finish have been hired by an airline? Ask for names. I know of none. Yes - a handful who started at other places and maybe only did a rating or two at Pan AM, but none that I know of who did our whole program. How many of FPRs instructors have been hired over the past 6 months? And how many hours did they have prior to being hired?

And finally, how many instructors, after having borrowed 80 grand, and successfully completing the program, are bagging groceries at Publix and watching their flying skills get rusty waiting to get hired as a CFI by Pan Scam.

 

[Phoenix_Son]

Sheesh, how many Harvards of Aviation are there? I thought that was just Riddle, now Panam is one, too? Next there's gonna be a Juilliard of Aviation!

Question for Mike...
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder sometimes about the guy studying for his ATP while finishing up his Private, long before he's even had time to absorb being a Private Pilot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you recommend flying as a PPL for a few months to a couple years before starting one of these condensed "get-your-ratings-real-quick" programs at an academy? Are there a lot of graduates of these programs that find themselves to be over-educated and under-experienced?

 

[chunk75]

[ QUOTE ]
An academy who is self-proclaiming itself the "Harvard of aviation" has no library???

Are you kidding me????


[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to be training pilots a MINIMUM of 10 years before claiming 'Harvard' status!!!

 

[ready2fly]

[ QUOTE ]
This just proves that FBOs are fine for some, depending on the FBO; academies fine for others.

[/ QUOTE ]
I have to wholeheartedly agree with this statement. The FBO where I am doing my training has:

a) some of the best maintained airplanes in the area. No, they're not new and shiney and no they don't have that "new plane" smell.. in fact, some of them downright STANK, but they fly and they don't quit on you.

b) One of the best cutomer-relations reputations around. They do NOT forget who is feeding them and they treat every customer with respect.

c) Fantastic instructors! These are guys and gals that want to be there. Some are building time towards the airlines, freight, corporate... et al., and some are career instructors. We also have one part-time instructor who is a UPS Captain and one that is a DAL 737 Captain (although she hasn't been around much lately, so I'm unsure of her status).

d) THE lowest rental rates ...... maybe in the state, I'm not certain, but DEFINITELY in the area.

This FBO works for ME. The one where I did my PPL did not.

In the past 8 months, out of the 6 full-time instructors we had on staff who were NOT career instructors (we have a total of 9 full-time instructors, 3 are career guys):
-one got a Charter job in Nantuckett;
-one is flying a Hawker bizjet;
-and another just finished his training at AirNet.

That ain't a bad ratio, folks.

An FBO will work just as well as an academy.

What YOU have to decide is what is best for YOU. No more, no less.

In the end, you have the same ratings and the same FAA signs off on those ratings.

Best of luck to all with whatever route you choose.

R2F

 

[Lucky]

something to be said for brand new aircraft.

NTSB Database


NTSB Identification: LAX03LA228
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Monday, July 07, 2003 in Phoenix, AZ
Aircraft: Piper PA-28-181, registration: N288PA
Injuries: 1 Uninjured.

This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On July 7, 2003, at 1256 mountain standard time, a Piper PA-28-181, N288PA, collided with a tree during an emergency landing 18 miles northeast of Phoenix Deer Valley Airport (DVT), Phoenix, Arizona. The emergency landing was precipitated by a loss of aileron control during cruise. Pan Am International Flight Academy operated the airplane under the provisions of 14 CFR Part 91 as an instructional flight. The private pilot, the sole occupant, was not injured; the airplane sustained substantial damage. The local flight departed DVT about 1215. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed, and a flight plan had not been filed.

During an interview with the Safety Board investigator-in-charge (IIC), the pilot, who was working toward his commercial certificate, stated that he departed DVT about 1215 to practice maneuvers. He attempted to make a clearing turn at 5,000 feet above ground level (agl) by moving the control wheel to the right, but the airplane did not respond. He looked at the wing as he continued moving the control wheel and realized that the ailerons were not operating. The pilot immediately contacted Deer Valley tower and declared an emergency. He landed the airplane on a dirt road using rudder and throttle to control movement. Upon landing, the right wing tip struck a tree, breaking off 3 feet of the wing. The wing bent upward, resulting in the main door and baggage door being stuck shut.

During an on scene examination of the airplane, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector found the fastener from the left control wheel on the floor. The fastener attaches the control wheel to the control column. The inspector moved the left control wheel and found that the column would not move. He moved the column and verified aileron continuity. He also noted excess oil on the control column.


Index for Jul2003 | Index of months

 

[ready2fly]

[ QUOTE ]
During an on scene examination of the airplane, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspector found the fastener from the left control wheel on the floor.

[/ QUOTE ]
Think that can't happen in a new plane too?

 

[Lucky]

[ QUOTE ]
something to be said for brand new aircraft.



[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry ha ha.... I was being sarcastic!!! trying to say.. new aircraft don't mean anything if they are not well maintained. I'd rather fly an old well maintained plane than a new one that not maintained as well!!

 

[ready2fly]

LOL!

gotcha.

 

[MikeD]

[ QUOTE ]
Sheesh, how many Harvards of Aviation are there? I thought that was just Riddle, now Panam is one, too? Next there's gonna be a Juilliard of Aviation!

Question for Mike...
[ QUOTE ]
I wonder sometimes about the guy studying for his ATP while finishing up his Private, long before he's even had time to absorb being a Private Pilot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Would you recommend flying as a PPL for a few months to a couple years before starting one of these condensed "get-your-ratings-real-quick" programs at an academy? Are there a lot of graduates of these programs that find themselves to be over-educated and under-experienced?

[/ QUOTE ]

IMO, too many people that just try to shoot through the ratings come out with the ratings on paper, but woefully short on necessary experience for the responsibility those ratings require. A guy that shoots straight through to a Comm ME/CFI has barely had time to be a Private pilot, probably rarely had time to actually enjoy a flight that he hasn't been getting graded on, just barely has had time to absorb 14 CFR 67, 91 (lots of stuff there), the AIM, etc, before he's now jumping with both feet into 14 CFR 135 and all it's regs, or even 14 CFR 121 and all its regs if he's studying for his ATP written. It's almost to the point of insanity with some guys. While they may look great on paper with their ratings, they're simply for all intents and purposes pilots of PPL experinece that hold advanced ratings. Once they get all the ratings on paper, now comes the "catch-up" time as a CFI to gain the experience needed to bring them to the level they're on on paper.

This isn't a hit at all on the specific person, since ideally, a guy could get his ratings at a slower pace with time to gain experience in that rating before moving to the next. But the crux of the matter is that in the "race to the airlines" that so many desire to do, one can't afford to go about the ratings the way I described, lest they run out of money, don't secure employment, fall behind the pack, etc, etc.

So while my idea is somewhat utopian, there's unfortunately little chance of it actually ever getting into practice. The onus is on the individual to then insure they build the experience they need while hopefully not getting themselves in an airborne bind someday that their ratings allowed them to get into, but their lack of experience won't let them get out of.

 

[Richard]

Panampilot....

I appologize for perpetuals behavior... I in no way wanted to start a b*tch session here. As a current student with Pan Am, do you know what the current wait time is to begin instructing there?

Thanks!!
Richard

 

[chunk75]

All those nasty things panampilot said about FSI's wait list...now what do we see? A list at Pan-o Am-o. I do not glory in your list, but find it ironic, nonetheless.

 

[ready2fly]

[ QUOTE ]
I do not glory in your list, but find it ironic, nonetheless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who talks like this???

 

[dakovich]

"I have a hard time believing that the average local FBO w/ 10-15 students would be able to provide the level of training that a big academy could. But that is just an opinion."


thats just untrue, and offensive to thousands of Flight Instructors nationwide.

 

[montanapilot]

[ QUOTE ]
1. Brand new aircraft; this may not be important to most but it was for me because I was sick of planes breaking down all the time and I was wasting my time waiting for them to be fixed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm almost done with my private license and I' ve been training in a 1978 152 and there has only been one flight lesson I had to cancel because of maintenence. What is the point of training in new airplanes anyway? just so they can have more of your money

(sitting on leather seats, a new paint job, and that "new plane smell" isnt gonna make you any better of a pilot)

 

[EatSleepFly]

[ QUOTE ]
"I have a hard time believing that the average local FBO w/ 10-15 students would be able to provide the level of training that a big academy could. But that is just an opinion."


thats just untrue, and offensive to thousands of Flight Instructors nationwide.



[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. If an instructor graduates from PanAm (or FSI, ATP, etc.) and then goes on to instruct at an FBO, what would make you think that they are not providing quality training just like they received? I know I personally teach my students just like I was taught at FlightSafety. Do you think us lowly FBO instructors dumb it down, just because its an FBO? Give me a break...

 

[perpetual]

Dakovich, Eatsleepfly, and Montanapilot

Shhh!! Dont let the cat out of the Bag, simple truths are hard for PanAmPilot to accept.

Oh and Richard, theres simply no need to "apologize for my behavior"..
Do you know why? Because everything I have said is truth.

Do you also know what else is truth Richard? I'll tell you,...

If you goto Pan am you "ARE" going to spend thousands of dollars on flight training
that could have been saved by taking the advice of many here.
But hey man, if you have money to Burn.. so be it

 

[Lima_Charlie]

Richard,

I know your visit is coming up in a few weeks. If I were you, I just continue to make a list of questions that you want to have answered, and make sure they are answered while you are there. As you can see, everyone has their own opinion, and that is fine. But the only way you can feel confident in your decision is to make sure you do your due diligence. If you haven't already, go visit some of your local FBO's, and ask the same questions. Another tip would be to make sure you talk to as many current students as possible while you visit. Everyone seems to have a different experience, so get as many sides of it as you can. Ask for references if you don't have the time to sit down with very many students. In fact see you can't get PanAm to give you some names and numbers before you visit. Do the same w/ a few of the FBO's. The best way to make the decision is to compare apples to apples, yes??

Good luck in your quest! Drop me a line if you have any more questions.

Oh.. One more thing I just thought of... If you have any connections w/in the airline industry, see if they can't put you in touch w/ someone in the recruiting department, and find out if they know anything about any of the schools you are considering. Just an idea...