Things That Go Bump In the Night

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
In flying.......carelessness and overconfidence are usually far more dangerous than deliberately accepted risks.

25 May 1988

2 Miles East of Raleigh-Durham International Airport, North Carolina (KRDU)

Midair Collision:
Cessna 172N, N737GU/ Piper PA-28R-200, N44018
2 Fatal

This is the third installment of a series of midair collisions I'm profiling in my resumption of MikeDs Aircraft Accident Analyses. Midair collisions are interesting, just as all aviation accidents are, due to the many situational dynamics that can be present, yet produce the same result: two aircraft coming together. Each midair I've profiled so far has a very unique sequence of events, proving that there are many ways and means of bringing two aircraft together in the vast sky that exists within the earth's atmosphere. As per usual, we don't find new ways to bring aircraft together in the sky, we just remake and/or repeat the same time-proven and blood-written situations that have been occurring since nearly the birth of flight. While the usually common denominator of failure to see and avoid seems to rear it's ugly head a majority of the time, it shares it's space with many different factors that can be as primary-causal as failure to see and avoid, secondarily related that help the failure to thrive, or stand alone. In today's accident, many judgemental, operational, and common sense errors were made; both by omission as well as by commission. Since Mr Murphy is all about equal-opportunity, the end result of this accident was hardly to be unexpected.

On the night of 25 May 1988, 3 pilots from a Petersburg, Virginia FBO had flown in a C-172, 737GU, to Raleigh-Durham International Airport, North Carolina (KRDU), from Petersburg. The purpose of the flight on that night was to pick up N44018, a Piper PA-28R-200 Arrow. N44018 had been left at KRDU in order to have one of it's two VHF comm radios fixed, however when the 3 pilots arrived at KRDU, they found out that the repairs had not occurred due to a parts problem. The three conferred, and decided to take N44018 back to Petersburg. Two of the pilots would fly in N44018, and the original pilot of N737GU would remain with that aircraft and return to Petersburg also. For the return flight, the 3 pilots planned to fly in night visual formation with the Piper in the lead, followed by the Cessna. The 3 pilots formulated a crude communications plan whereby the Cessna would monitor both ATC as well as a selected air-air frequency, while the Piper would use it's one comm radio to monitor ATC until clear of the RDU ARSA (Airport Radar Service Area), to where it would then switch to the preplanned air-air frequency for the remainder of the VFR flight. There is no evidence of any other formation briefing items discussed between the two crews beyond air-air communications. The first hiccup for the flight began on the clearance delivery frequency. Both N44018 and N737GU obtained separate ATC clearances (non-standard for a formation flight, this will be covered more in the discussion section). N44018 was given a departure heading of 090, and altitude of 1500' MSL, and a departure frequency of 125.3. N737GU was given a departure heading of 350, an altitude of 1500' MSL, and a departure frequency of 132.35. N737GUs pilot queried clearance delivery as to why he had different departure instructions, since he was flying with N44018. Clearance delivery was understandably confused by this query, since both aircraft had requested separate clearances, with neither informing ATC of any formation intentions. After several explanations to clearance delivery, the situation was finally resolved when ATC agreed to drop 737GUs clearance from the system, and show it as part of N44018s ATC clearance, with a 090 departure heading for both. That problem finally getting resolved, both aircraft called for and received taxi instructions to the active runway. Both aircraft called for and received takeoff clearace with N44018 taking off first, followed a short delay later by N737GU. The pilot of N737GU stated that shortly after takeoff, he flew to a position on the left side of N44018, and noticed that the Piper was in a slight right turn to the 090 departure heading, leveling at 1500' MSL. The Cessna pilot further stated that as he was trimming his aircraft, he noticed the Piper accelerating and beginning to outrun him. At about this same time, the local controller handed off the flight to the RDU TRACON controller. The Cessna pilot changed to frequency 132.35 (his previously assigned departure freq), and unsuccessfully attempted to contact departure. By this time, the Piper had disappeared from his view. The Cessna pilot felt it necessary to find the correct frequency and inform both ATC as well as the Piper's crew that he'd lost sight of the Piper, and began to reference a frequency card in the seat next to him in order to find the correct departure frequency. All this time, the Cessna's pilot still had not regained visual with the Piper, however he attempted to crosscheck the frequency card as well as look out for the Piper by holding the card out in front of him as he flew. The Cessna pilot had found a frequency he was going to attempt communication on, when the collision with the Piper occurred. The Cessna, in full power, had overrun the Piper and collided with it in near level flight, with an approximate 10 degree heading crossing angle. The Cessna's propeller and nose landing gear impacted the left side of the Piper Arrow's vertical stabilizer and fuselage. Following the collision, the Piper began an immediate left descending spiral and impacted the ground, fatally injuring the two pilots onboard. The Cessna suffered engine failure and a severed nose landing gear, however the pilot was able to successfully turn back towards KRDU and land on Runway 32, minus the nose gear and most of the propeller. The collision occurred about 1 minute after the frequency change had been given from tower to TRACON.

Probable Cause

*Visual Lookout- Not Maintained- Pilot In Command N737GU
*Inflight Planning/Decision- Improper- Pilot In Command N737GU

Secondary Factors

*Preflight Preparation- Inadequate- Pilot In Command N737GU
*Preflight Preparation- Inadequate- Pilot In Command N44018
*Diverted Attention- Pilot In command N737GU
*Formation Flying/Procedures- Improper- Pilot In Command N737GU
*Overconfidence in Personal Ability- Pilot In Command N737GU

Tertiary Factors

*Light Condition- Dark Night

MikeD Says:

If there really is a definition of "an accident that should never happen," or "an accident that should be completely avoidable," this one certainly ranks at or very near the top. There are so many questions that can be asked of this accident regards what the crews were thinking, why they were doing what they were doing, what was the benefit of taking the risk they were, etc, etc. The pilot of N737GU was a 30 year old Commercial ASMEL/ASES rated pilot, with an additional rotorcraft category rating on his Commercial certificate. He had 3660 Total Time at the time of the accident. However, neither member of the flight had any experience with formation flying. I've said time and again, that regardless of how many hours someone may have, formation flying is a flying all to it's own. If you're not trained in formation methods, responsibilities, and procedures, then you have absolutely no business engaging in any sort of formation flying. Period. Period again. The margin for error is so low, and the required knowlege so high, that there is absolutely no operationally pressing need for pilots not trained in formation flying, to engage in such. The mistakes both crews made, demonstrated with painful certainty that neither crew had even the most rudimentary training on formation procedures, much less any training on formation flying. And with this lack of training and experience, they still decided to embark on a night formation rejoin and flight......a fairly difficult and SA-taxing endeavor even for someone with a good amount of experience in formation flying. The mistakes these guys made could fill a proverbial laundry list:

Inadequate Preflight Planning: The only planning done by both crews was coordinating a frequency to talk on, and which aircraft would be on what frequency. There was no discussion on lost communication procedures, lead and wingman formation responsibilities, formation communication rules (ROE), basic discussion on formation references on the Piper and which types of formations would be flown or could be expected (which neither crew knew anyway). The pilot of 737GU explained that, while the two crews had discussed a contingency plan for if they got separated outside the RDU ARSA on their way to their destination, there was no discussion on any plans for what would be done in the event of "lost wingman" when still within the ARSA. What was the rationale for this? According to the pilot of 737GU, it was "that was too close in, for any formation separation to be anticipated." That's a very surprising statement. One of the biggest parts of formation flight planning is the concept of contingencies....what to do if? These must be covered from takeoff roll all the way to landing, since differing phases of flight will normally require different contingency planning, often for the same problem(s). The fact that nothing of anything I wrote above, was covered in any way, shape, or form in a pre-mission brief, is further evidence that both crews were suffering from a good degree of both overconfidence as well as nonchalance, regarding mission preparation.

Inadequate Formation Procedures: This was painfully demonstrated in the initial check-in to clearance delivery. One of the hallmarks of an experienced formation flyer, is radio discipline. In formation flying, the designated flight leader does all communications to ATC. As the lead of the flight, that's one of his responsibilities. On that note, only one clearance is given to a formation flight.....that of the flight leader. Number 2's response is only to say "2", when a clearance or other instructions are given. He can ask for clarification on an interflight frequency, but the primary ATC frequency isn't for interflight comm. If any questions are required, and there is only one radio available, then a query to go "off freq" momentarily is appropriate, to the pre-selected interflight freq. The fact that both aircraft checked in with clearance delivery separately, was the primary reason ATC didn't think they were a formation. The Piper, as the lead aircraft, should've been the only one requesting anything. Comm is SO important in formation flying, because how comm starts out on initial check-in's, is what sets the tone for the flight to follow. Generally, you have lousy comm on check-in, the flight will reflect that in how it goes. This was painstakingly proven to a fatal degree in this accident. Additionally, there was no discussion on of basic formation references for the Piper....what the Cessna pilot should be looking at, what formation is what. If you don't know these during the day, you sure as hell aren't going to know a darn thing for night. Pre-briefing as much of the flight's procedures is extremely important in order that both crews can be on the same page and can anticipate what will be happening at any given stage of the flight. It also serves to keep radio comm on administrative stuff to an absolute minimum; another mark of a professional formation-trained crew. With none of this training in your back pocket, you're an accident just waiting to happen, as both these crews were.

Misplaced Priorities: Both crews had hugely misplaced priorities. In addition to all of the above, the Piper crew failed to lead, and the Cessna pilot failed to be a wingman. Of course, there is no way they could have been, since none of the crews knew the procedures anyway to begin with. As stated above, the Cessna pilot should never have been on the wrong departure frequency, since his clearance (all inclusive.....the heading/altitude/and departure frequency) was cancelled when he was put on the Piper's clearance as per normal formation ROE. Following takeoff, he couldn't fly proper formation references due to the fact that he hadn't been trained in any, in day much less night. Following the frequency change, he shouldn't have worried if he couldn't get a hold of TRACON. The Piper should be the only one checking-in anyway as the formation leader. The Cessna should never talk, except to acknowlege the check-in. Even if the Cessna didn't acknowlege the check-in, it's certainly not the end of the world. HAD the Piper crew knew what they were doing as a formation leader, they would've kept track of their wingman. Failing that, then they would've cranked their neck around and checked that the Cessna was with them when it didn't respond to the check-in to TRACON. So long as they can see that, they can "rock" the Cessna in and work the frequency muck-up via hand signals (day), or flashlight signals (night). The Cessna pilot's PRIMARY responsibility was what the responsibility for every formation wingman is: deconfliction. The Cessna's pilot dropped his deconfliction responsibilities over simple and relatively unimportant (in the bigger scheme of things) items as a wrong comm frequency. Once he lost visual on his leader, he should've spent his PRIMARY time regaining a visual from the last known position of the Piper, NOT referencing a comm card. He knew what their clearance was, and knew that the Piper isn't going to make some crazy maneuvering to some off-the-wall heading or altitude, so he should've had a good reference for where to begin looking to reacquire the Piper. Additionally, and I alluded to this earlier as a wingman responsibility that was never briefed or understood in the inadequate preflight brief. If the Cessna pilot couldn't regain visual, there should've been a pre-briefed plan for deconfliction. Examples of this would be to take 100' vertical separation. For example, the Cessna could've immediately climbed to 1700' MSL to look for the Piper. Or, if the city lights were causing the Piper's lights to "blend-in", he could've legally descended 100' and given himself a "look up" angle to work with. Either way, he'd still be in some form of standard formation, which is defined as within 100' and 1 mile of the lead aircraft. Heck, even taking 200' of separation one way or the other would still be legal, if not at least to avoid colliding with an airplane you know is still somewhere close to you. The fact that the pilot spent any time looking at a frequency card, instead of 100% attention regaining visual, tells me that at that time, the hair on the back of his neck never stood up......never had that impending feeling of doom that someone with formation experience would definitely feel at that particular moment in the same circumstances. Additionally, the Cessna pilot stated that it had been agreed that the Piper would operate at a reduced throttle setting, while the Cessna would operate at full throttle. Again, another example of lack of training in formation procedures and further evidence of no formation training. The wing aircraft should never operate at full throttle. Lead's power management should always allow the wingman excess power to "push it up" as necessary, to maintain formation positioning in whatever formation may be being flown at the time.

The Rest of the Story

There was an interesting amount of follow-on events regarding this accident, and certificate action taken by the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) against the pilot of N737GU, the sole survivor. These events revolved around FAA action against the pilot, an appeal to the NTSB by the pilot against the action taken by the FAA resulting in a rare NTSB overruling of an FAA action; and an FAA appeal that was upheld on the even more rare overturn of an NTSB Administrative Law Judge ruling.

In 1989, following the accident, the FAA suspended the pilot's airman's certificate for a period of 180 days under two FAR's:

1. 14 CFR 91.9; Careless or Reckless Operation (now 14 CFR 91.13a...MikeD)

Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person
may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to
endanger the life or property of another.

2. 14 CFR 91.65; Operating Near Other Aircraft (now 14 CFR 91.111a....MikeD)

No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft
as to create a collision hazard.

In the order of suspension, the FAA alleged that:

"1. At all times material herein, you were and are the holder of Commerical pilot certificate XXXXXXXXX.

2. On or about 25 May 1988, you operated civil aircraft N737GU, a Cessna 172N, the property of another, on a flight departing in formation with aircraft N44018, a Piper PA-28, from the Raleigh-Durham Airport, Raleigh, NC.

3. During the course of the above described flight, during the departure, N737GU collided with aircraft N44018.

4. As a result of the collision described in paragraph 3 above, N737GU and N44018 sustained major damage. The two occupants of N44018 received fatal injuries as a result of the accident."

In January of 1990, the pilot appealed the FAA action against his airman's certificate to the National Transportation Safety Board (a fully legal action). Amazingly, in the 1990 ruling, the NTSB Administrative Law Judge hearing the case reversed the FAA's legal action against the pilot, finding "no evidence of a lack of carelessness or unreasonableness," on the part of the pilot of N737GU, and ordering the FAA to restore the airman's certificate privileges immediately. The FAA appealed the ALJ's ruling, re-asserting that the pilot "did not act prudently in his preparation for, and conduct of, the flight in question.....and should have taken additional steps which would've diminished the likelihood of a midair collision with the flight lead's aircraft." In 1992, the NTSB sided with the FAA on it's appeal, reinstating the certificate action on the grounds of "....safety in air commerce or air transportation and the public interest require affirmation of the Administrator's order in it's entirety."

Therefore, the NTSB ordered that:

"1. The Administrator's appeal is granted.

2. The law judge's initial decision is reversed and the Administrator's order is affirmed, and

3. The 180 day suspension of the respondant's airman certificate shall begin 30 days from the date of service of this order."

MikeDs Final Thoughts

As I stated in the beginning of this profile, we don't find new ways to create midair collisions. We simply mildly modify, or refine, existing methods......season them to taste, if you will. There are midairs that occur from certainly understandable conditions.....conditions that could be mitigated, or the lessons relearned, or occurred in a situation outside the reasonable control of the parties involved (rare), or due to a previously unknown set of factors (even more rare). Then there are midairs, like any other accident of similiar causal factors, where you look at it and think "this really need not have happened." If only the proper training were there. If only the participants would've analyzed why it was so important to partake in a certain activity. In this case, why was formation flight deemed necessary, especially with all the limitations and risk clearly presenting itself? This mission, to retrieve an airplane from an outbase, is one of the more benign missions out there; yet the people involved deliberately, and for still unclear reasons, turned what should've been a very vanilla mission, into a real challenge that was full of unnecessary risk......challenge that would've tasked even the most trained formation flyers among us. It was certainly no walk in the park, and certainly not a mission (the mission it became) to be taken lightly, as the players this night in May did so. The tragedy of carelessness and overconfidence, as so eloquently stated in the opening quote of this report, showed itself to be alive and well, and truer than ever. And the results were deadly. If there's anything to take out of this accident, it's that planning, knowing your training limits, keeping within your experience level, using common sense, never being careless, managing risk versus reward for what you're planning to do, and being thorough when you do it; are traits that should never be taken for granted......

.....if you want to avoid Things That Go Bump In The Night.

MikeD

The above is not intended to be an undue criticism of the person or persons involved in the incident described. Instead, the analysis presented is intended to further the cause of flight safety and help to reduce accidents and incidents by educating pilots through the sacrifices of others in our profession.
 
Definitely worth the time to read and what a shame that it takes such a tragic situation to make people listen.

I have another dumb formation story for you here Mike, which I knew and wasn't comfortable with at the time but valued my job like most dumb pilots.

Some Background info:

It was about 8 or 9 months ago when I had just started working for the flight school I am currently working for, at the time I had just under 300 total hours. The school got a request to fly a missing man formation over a funeral about 20-30 miles from the airport.

The pilots were myself with 300 hours, the lead we will call him Bob with 15,000+, and the other CFI we can call Joe with 1500.

The lead aircraft was a 172SP and the other 2 were 172P models which are slightly slower, by about 10 knots, than the SP model.


The planning:

Here was my brief, Bob "Ok I am going to fly lead, we will talk on 123.45 and you guys fly behind me." Immediately I questioned which way we were turning, what speed we were going to fly at, and how close he wanted us to be. He said, "as close as you want and as fast as we can to get there." There was no mention of a speed to fly the formation left hand race track we were going to fly or any discussion of reference points on the aircraft.

Most importantly there was zero mention of rate/radius and reducing/adding power for the inside versus the outside aircraft. I had spoke a little bit with a professor in college about formation flying and the extent of my knowledge was the inside guy had better reduce power and tighten his/her turn.

So Bob headed out to his plane leaving Joe and I wondering who would fly which side and how it would happen. I gave Joe the little information I had from my college professor and offered to fly the inside track since he gave me one of those glazed over looks when I told started discussing what the inside man would have to do to not eat up the other aircraft.


The flight:

We taxied down to prepare to takeoff and would be departing about a half mile apart and joining when in the air. Bob, "Cessna xxx taking active for departure," me, "BOB WAIT AIRCRAFT SHORT FINAL!!!" Aircraft on final, (obviously irritated and was our chief CFI) "Cessna xxx going around..."

What a great start was all I could think at this point. Anyways we got airborne and the flight out was relatively uneventful. We flew a fairly tight, about a 1/4 mile formation on the way out there. I requested Bob fly at 90 knots for the pattern, he didn't listen and flew closer to 100, our P models cap out at about 110 so you can see where this is going I am sure.

We did a left turning oval race track with 1 lap, then the break off, and one last turn to head back home and rejoin for the flight home. The formation was me back left, Bob lead, and Joe back right. Joe would do the break off.


Turn 1:

The first turn was quite an interesting experience for me, I reduced power from around 2200/2300 to around 1900 to slow down. Well it didn't work, I ended up having to increase bank and passed Bob on the first turn while asking him on the radio to look out for me and avoid as I would be passing him. He acknowledged and it went out uneventful but scared the crap out of me. Meanwhile Joe was now about 2 miles back and struggling to catch up.


Turn 2, Break off, turn 3:

I wasn't taking any chances now, when Bob called the turn over the radio I immediately idled the power and then used it as necessary to keep with him around the turn. This worked out great and I found it very easy to keep with him here. Joe had also done a little better and stayed almost with us around that turn. I think some of this was because we had all lost some speed around the first turn giving Joe the more margin to keep up.

The break off was uneventful but sloppy as Joe only pulled about 10 degrees nose up with a shallow right turn. Bob radioed Joe and told him to pull hard up and back and really break off which Joe did without incident.

Turn 3 was also uneventful as I had now learned what was necessary to keep on Bob's wing through a 30 degree turn.


Debrief with my chief CFI:

First off, my chief CFI is an ex navy pilot with extensive training in formation flight but he had a student this day so Bob was asked to lead us who I don't think had any real formation training.

So I went and spoke to him and when I told him I was the inside guy I could see from the look on his face that what we had done was stupid. His first words were, the inside guy should always be the most experienced pilot as it is the most difficult position to fly in a formation. He then went on to teach me about formation flying, using reference points, radio communications and such for over an hour.


Lesson learned: Edit: to bold this

Don't fly formation till you spend adequate time with an experienced pilot learning what the heck your doing. I realized from talking to him that thinking I knew anything about such an intricate task was just plain stupid of me. You can know this all on paper all you want, like I did, knowing the rate/radius and how speeds for each will need to be different. But the experience of watching a guy slide closer and closer while you have your power reduced and are increasing bank to try and stay away till finally you pass him gives a whole new perspective on what you really know.

On a final note, I certainly would not want to have experienced something like this at night, at least not without many hours of daytime practice.
 
Sounds like the definition of amateur hour right there. Hearing stories like that scares the crap out of me.....just the fact that there are folks out there with no training whatsoever out trying to do things like this in the same airspace the rest of us are transiting through. Just be glad someone wasn't killed, as ironic as that would have been given the mission. Kudos for having the good common sense to step it out really far (1/4 mile isn't really close enough to be considered "formation" unless you are talking about tactical flying) when you realized you were in over your head....that probably saved you all from swapping paint. Good learning points though, thanks for sharing!
 
After the first turn it was a few hundred feet and I flew at a lower altitude with the plan to dive if it got sloppy again. But thank god we started so far apart or you might be reading about this from another source.
 
After the first turn it was a few hundred feet and I flew at a lower altitude with the plan to dive if it got sloppy again. But thank god we started so far apart or you might be reading about this from another source.

Yeah. You'd be the accident I profiled, instead of the guys in the original post.
 
Yeah. You'd be the accident I profiled, instead of the guys in the original post.

Yup that is what I figured, it was all I thought about reading your accident report. Too bad it takes an experience like that for most low time pilots, like me, to find out how stupid something like this really is.
 
Yup that is what I figured, it was all I thought about reading your accident report. Too bad it takes an experience like that for most low time pilots, like me, to find out how stupid something like this really is.

That's why I write them. If even someone gets something out of them, then the effort has been worth it.
 
That's why I write them. If even someone gets something out of them, then the effort has been worth it.

The effort was definitely worth it. Very good read in addition to the other story added. Personally, I would never attempt formation flying, but it was interesting to read some of the do's and don't's.
 
But the experience of watching a guy slide closer and closer while you have your power reduced and are increasing bank to try and stay away till finally you pass him gives a whole new perspective on what you really know

Interestingly (or maybe not) enough, when you are joining up in a turn (what we call a "CV rendevous") the best way to smack right into your lead is to continue to increase AoB away from them. It seems counterintuitive at first, but by turning into him you are actually moving to match or exceed his radius of turn and thus moving into a sucked/trailing position which is the safe place to be. Otherwise not only do you turn inside him and increase closure rate, but you also generally lose sight of him as he passes underneath your aircraft with excess angle of bank....which could end as a big surprise when you eventually find out where he is (flying into your belly for example). Just some tidbits of theory in case you do decide to ever try this again, given the proper instruction and environment.
 
The planning:

Here was my brief, Bob "Ok I am going to fly lead, we will talk on 123.45 and you guys fly behind me." Immediately I questioned which way we were turning, what speed we were going to fly at, and how close he wanted us to be. He said, "as close as you want and as fast as we can to get there." There was no mention of a speed to fly the formation left hand race track we were going to fly or any discussion of reference points on the aircraft.


I don't mean to but in and go off topic, but 123.45 is not to be used as an air to air freq. FCC has set this freq. aside for other uses (I belive it's for people doing flight testing). Read AIM 4-1-11. I'll look for the article and see what I find.
 
I don't mean to but in and go off topic, but 123.45 is not to be used as an air to air freq. FCC has set this freq. aside for other uses (I belive it's for people doing flight testing). Read AIM 4-1-11. I'll look for the article and see what I find.

That was part of the point, glad you caught it. ;)

This 15,000 hour guy doesn't brief the formation properly, gives us the wrong air-air frequency to use, and then almost causes a damn accident on takeoff. The sad thing is he is a great stick and rudder pilot but his overall manner is typical of the "its a plane just fly it" type guys. Which is why it isn't surprising to me to read an accident report and hear claim after claim of how great a pilot the person was when I see guys like this, an accident waiting to happen.


Mike what is that guys name that used to do rolls in I think it was the B-2 or some other very large bomber. He was a very famous military pilot and an incredible pilot to boot who is now dead along with his entire crew because of one of his retarded stunts.
 
Mike what is that guys name that used to do rolls in I think it was the B-2 or some other very large bomber. He was a very famous military pilot and an incredible pilot to boot who is now dead along with his entire crew because of one of his retarded stunts.
It was a B-52...and that whole thing is a great case study in not just airmanship but (I think this is the right term) organizational leadership and how leaders can fail spectacularly.
 
Interestingly (or maybe not) enough, when you are joining up in a turn (what we call a "CV rendevous") the best way to smack right into your lead is to continue to increase AoB away from them. It seems counterintuitive at first, but by turning into him you are actually moving to match or exceed his radius of turn and thus moving into a sucked/trailing position which is the safe place to be. Otherwise not only do you turn inside him and increase closure rate, but you also generally lose sight of him as he passes underneath your aircraft with excess angle of bank....which could end as a big surprise when you eventually find out where he is (flying into your belly for example). Just some tidbits of theory in case you do decide to ever try this again, given the proper instruction and environment.

Thank you for sharing that about formation flying. I guess ship drivers do the same thing too when in formation with an aircraft carrier. One of the scariest things a ship driver has to contend with is being stuck as rescue destroyer/plane guard for a carrier, where you tuck in at 1/2 mile on the carrier's starboard quarter - or if the carrier is really going to be a pain in the butt and wants to induce a heart attack on the ship driver they tell you to take station at 1/4 mile. (Station STBD ONE NINER ANSWER)

One of the first things you're taught is if the carrier turns right - the worst place to stay is on the inside of the turn - so carrier turns right, destroyer increases speed, turns left to cross the carrier's wake and then turns right to stay outside of the carrier's turn. After the carrier finally settles down on a course you drive your ship back on station.

There's been many a destroyer who's swapped paint with an aircraft carrier because they lost track of where the CV was in close proximity to a carrier.
 
Interestingly (or maybe not) enough, when you are joining up in a turn (what we call a "CV rendevous") the best way to smack right into your lead is to continue to increase AoB away from them. It seems counterintuitive at first, but by turning into him you are actually moving to match or exceed his radius of turn and thus moving into a sucked/trailing position which is the safe place to be. Otherwise not only do you turn inside him and increase closure rate, but you also generally lose sight of him as he passes underneath your aircraft with excess angle of bank....which could end as a big surprise when you eventually find out where he is (flying into your belly for example). Just some tidbits of theory in case you do decide to ever try this again, given the proper instruction and environment.

Hah well I can say one thing if I try it again I will be on the outside of the turn so I don't have anything to worry about other then loosing them. I had to dive while turning to keep him in sight but wow I see what you mean by tightening my radius I had to read a few times to get that, but definitely makes sense thanks for the info.
 
Night, unaided, formation join up by pilots with no formation experience. I'd be surprised if an accident did not occur. I don't know how many formation hours I have, and I never really liked night unaided formation. I was almost killed once doing a night unaided formation join up over ABQ.
BTW, not to high jack the thread, but I once did a night formation join up... with the wrong aircraft from a different service. Me- "Torch." (Lead kill your strobe after formation join up). Nothing. Me-"Chalk one, torch." Lead-"It's off." Me- "No it isn't, and it's killing me." Lead- "I don't know what strobe you're looking at, but mine is off." Me- ???? Increased the magnification on the FLIR and realized "lead" was a similar aircraft from a different service. I don't think they ever saw me.
 
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