The urinating match.... does it continue?

[butt]

Threads like this only cement my decision to never work for an airline. Its just all too complicated. If I choose the wrong airline to work for, people will shun me? How am I supposed to know which ones are OK, and which ones are "protoscab"? I've been reading this site casually for a few months, and I still haven't figured that one out...

But please, explain me this: How does one company offering low wages, manage to hurt pilots working for a completely different company? If McDonalds lowered their wages, would that screw over Wendy's employees? The way I see it, if an airline offered lower wages, couldn't pilots just not work there? If the pilot already decided he's all right with working for a 30% lower wage, why rage against him? What would that help? He already took the job. Wouldn't it be more constructive to funnel that anger towards educating new people or something?

Every time this topic comes up, I hear the same arguments over and over and over again, "these scum are bringing down the industry", "they are undercutting my salary", "they are the reason my pension was taken away!", "they are the lowest lifeform on the planet, worse than child molesters!!". -- But no one will ever attempt to explain exactly why these claims are true.

To me, it just seems like people directing their anger towards the nearest thing. It's like kicking your dog or something...

 

[Kevin.Held]

Threads like this only cement my decision to never work for an airline. Its just all too complicated. If I choose the wrong airline to work for, people will shun me? How am I supposed to know which ones are OK, and which ones are "protoscab"? I've been reading this site casually for a few months, and I still haven't figured that one out...

But please, explain me this: How does one company offering low wages, manage to hurt pilots working for a completely different company? If McDonalds lowered their wages, would that screw over Wendy's employees? The way I see it, if an airline offered lower wages, couldn't pilots just not work there? If the pilot already decided he's all right with working for a 30% lower wage, why rage against him? What would that help? He already took the job. Wouldn't it be more constructive to funnel that anger towards educating new people or something?

Every time this topic comes up, I hear the same arguments over and over and over again, "these scum are bringing down the industry", "they are undercutting my salary", "they are the reason my pension was taken away!", "they are the lowest lifeform on the planet, worse than child molesters!!". -- But no one will ever attempt to explain exactly why these claims are true.

To me, it just seems like people directing their anger towards the nearest thing. It's like kicking your dog or something...

I have no experience with airlines so its not my place to post opinions about jetblue, gojets etc. pilots. However I think i can answer your question. If McDonalds lowered their wages 30%, and were still able to staff their stores appropriately, they could then charge 20% less for their hamburgers, thus forcing Wendy's to either lower their prices to compete, or keep current prices and downsize by closing the less-profitable stores. At the next contract negotiation (or in this case bankrupcy hearing), the company claims they don't make enough money to pay the current wages, thus resulting in pay cuts. Obviously competition is integral to a capitalist economy, but in a profession that prides itself on comradery, it does seem a little selfish to take a job at one of these organizations...although it's far from being the only problem (ok so maybe the new guy does have an opinion).

As rediculous as some of these arguments get, wannabe's like myself would still be clueless about the topic if it werent for opinionated banter. I dont take velo's or falconvalley's words as truth (no offense gents), but I use opposing opinions, research further and come up with my own thoughts.

Besides, it gives me something interesting to read while i'm at work.

Please feel free to flame the noob who has absolutely no right to comment on airline unions.

 

[Seggy]

That is a great way of explaining it Kevin!

 

[falconvalley]

I have no experience with airlines so its not my place to post opinions about jetblue, gojets etc. pilots. However I think i can answer your question. If McDonalds lowered their wages 30%, and were still able to staff their stores appropriately, they could then charge 20% less for their hamburgers, thus forcing Wendy's to either lower their prices to compete, or keep current prices and downsize by closing the less-profitable stores. At the next contract negotiation (or in this case bankrupcy hearing), the company claims they don't make enough money to pay the current wages, thus resulting in pay cuts. Obviously competition is integral to a capitalist economy, but in a profession that prides itself on comradery, it does seem a little selfish to take a job at one of these organizations...although it's far from being the only problem (ok so maybe the new guy does have an opinion).

As rediculous as some of these arguments get, wannabe's like myself would still be clueless about the topic if it werent for opinionated banter. I dont take velo's or falconvalley's words as truth (no offense gents), but I use opposing opinions, research further and come up with my own thoughts.

Besides, it gives me something interesting to read while i'm at work.

Please feel free to flame the noob who has absolutely no right to comment on airline unions.

None taken. Just different professionals with different takes on an issue. The industry in it's current state is relatively young and we're still blazing trails. You think it gets hot in here...whew this is nothin!

 

[Hacker15e]

There are good trade-unionists at JetBlue that are just waiting for the opportunity to unionize.

Is that what the whole goal is? To unionize?

And here I thought the goal was to have a well-paid pilot profession, and having a union was just the mechanism to get to that goal.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Is that what the whole goal is? To unionize?

And here I thought the goal was to have a well-paid pilot profession, and having a union was just the mechanism to get to that goal.

"Well-paid" is only a small fraction of the goal here. How about job security? Safety? Legislation? Grievances? The list goes on and on. Unions do a lot more than just work on payrates and work rules. Just because you have a good pay scale and some decent work rules doesn't mean that you don't need a union. Without a union, no one is there to protect you if the CP or some checkairman has it in for you. No one is there to help you get your medical back if you lose it for some reason. No one is there to fight on Capital Hill for pilot-friendly legislation.

In all my time as a union rep, very little of it was spent on working on raising pay rates. Yes, that was certainly something I had to deal with as an MEC member during Section 6, but most of my time was spent in representing pilots in disciplinary hearings that didn't deserve to be disciplined. All the good pay in the world won't help you if management decides that your "services are no longer needed." Too many pilots wrongfully believe that ALPA is all about contracts. ALPA is also about helping you keep your job, helping you get the help you need if you have a problem with alcohol or depression, helping you get your medical back if an EKG doesn't quite turn out right, and many other things.

 

[Velocipede]

Some JetBlue pilots still wear their ALPA pins and voice a pro-union message. Earlier this year, a large group of JetBlue pilots went to Herndon to talk with ALPA about an organizing drive. There are good trade-unionists at JetBlue that are just waiting for the opportunity to unionize.

Some. Not all, not by a long shot. And once they actually get off the pot and do it, then they will be welcomed on my jumpseat. Until then, they should take off their ALPA pins. Those should only be worn by members in good standing. Period.

 

[Velocipede]

Okay, so riddle me this. How do we get those non-union guys to go union? Simply wait for tragedy to strike?

Or maybe deny them Union negotiated benefits and perks...like jumpseats.

 

[Velocipede]

Every time this topic comes up, I hear the same arguments over and over and over again, "these scum are bringing down the industry", "they are undercutting my salary", "they are the reason my pension was taken away!", "they are the lowest lifeform on the planet, worse than child molesters!!". -- But no one will ever attempt to explain exactly why these claims are true.

To me, it just seems like people directing their anger towards the nearest thing. It's like kicking your dog or something...

Because this industry, even more than others are driven by cause and effect. If one airline drops its prices, the others match immediately. If one airline can slash its labor costs, then the others will strive to slash their labor costs to the same level. All it takes is observation. 6 years ago jetBlue came on the scene with a non-Union labor force, 30% lower wages and ZERO retirement. They were the darlings of the NYC media because they were making money (Wall Street was orgasming over them) and the rest of the town saw them as the low fare saviors. For a couple years, they grew exponentially and made money hand over fist.

The other airline managers saw that and determined to match jetBlue's 'success' in the labor market. They forced their labor groups to take huge pay and benefits cuts, sometimes using the Bankruptcy Court to be the boogeyman.

Observe where USAir, UAL, NWA and DAL narrowbody payrates are today...jetBlue. Note where the USAir, UAL, and DAL pension plans are today...gone same as jetBlue.

And you can actually make the kind of statements you do questioning why Unionized pilots view protoscab airlines like jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus as evil incarnate? They are directly responsible for driving down the standard of living for EVERY UNION PILOT in the U.S.

And the scum that go to work for these outfits are the fuel stoking the fire.
Without the witless wonders who accept employment for substandard, non-Union pay and benefits, these airlines couldn't get off the ground. But, pilots are our own worst enemy. They'll go just about anywhere, do anything and stab anyone in the back if they think it will get them a better type rating or a shinier jet to fly.

These people disgust me. They should disgust every self-respecting Union pilot in America.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Because this industry, even more than others are driven by cause and effect. If one airline drops its prices, the others match immediately."

SWA has done much more to effect the profit margin at AS than JetBlue ever will. I think it's pretty safe to say the SWA model has done more to bring down what the legacies were (and wanted to be) than 9/11 ever did. Especially considering it happened over 20 years.

What markets does AS and Jetblue conflict in? I can't think of any that are direct.

So....that brings me to my point. SWA pilots make top of the line wages for flying 737's. 10 years ago, they were not top of the line, but "acceptable" to most. SWA has never been ALPA. They have been inhouse. Let's just say SWA was non-union but was considered such a great place to work that they didn't need a union. Let's say the guys working there were happy with no union. Velo, can you honestly tell me if SWA was non-union today, that they wouldn't suffer your wrath the way Jetblue folks do?

SWA has done far more to negatively impact AS profit margins over the years than Jetblue ever could. Yet this doesn't enter your picture because they are union.

Velo needs somebody to vent at (and he says I have a self image problem).

I think his arugment falls apart when you consider he has nothing negative to say about SWA though they have done far, far, more to impact his airline than Jetblue.

What say you Velo? Pretend that SWA was non-union for the sake of discussion. Would you condemn them for their lack of a union even though they have an hourly rate has been competitive with yours, over the years?

 

[Bigey]

"Because this industry, even more than others are driven by cause and effect. If one airline drops its prices, the others match immediately."

SWA has done much more to effect the profit margin at AS than JetBlue ever will. I think it's pretty safe to say the SWA model has done more to bring down what the legacies were (and wanted to be) than 9/11 ever did. Especially considering it happened over 20 years.

What markets does AS and Jetblue conflict in? I can't think of any that are direct.

So....that brings me to my point. SWA pilots make top of the line wages for flying 737's. 10 years ago, they were not top of the line, but "acceptable" to most. SWA has never been ALPA. They have been inhouse. Let's just say SWA was non-union but was considered such a great place to work that they didn't need a union. Let's say the guys working there were happy with no union. Velo, can you honestly tell me if SWA was non-union today, that they wouldn't suffer your wrath the way Jetblue folks do?

SWA has done far more to negatively impact AS profit margins over the years than Jetblue ever could. Yet this doesn't enter your picture because they are union.

Velo needs somebody to vent at (and he says I have a self image problem).

I think his arugment falls apart when you consider he has nothing negative to say about SWA though they have done far, far, more to impact his airline than Jetblue.

What say you Velo? Pretend that SWA was non-union for the sake of discussion. Would you condemn them for their lack of a union even though they have an hourly rate has been competitive with yours, over the years?

If i understand velo right, he doesnt have a grief with NON-UNION carriers that pay COMPETITIVE wages.

 

[mikecweb]

Just curious. Has there ever been an airline started with industry leading pay and a union pilot group??
I haven't been in this industry long enough to know.

 

[Seggy]

Just curious. Has there ever been an airline started with industry leading pay and a union pilot group??
I haven't been in this industry long enough to know.

Multi layer question. Many of the majors today started as smaller ones, then after merger after merger they grew to be what they are today. For example, United started out being owned by Boeing, Continental started as a small intra-Texas carrier, etc.

With this said though, many airlines have started many a time with industry leading pay THEN unionized. Pan Am, Braniff, and Eastern were a few. ALPA started to protect whipsaws and work rules and increase pay of the bottom feeders of the 1920s/30s/40s.

 

[mikecweb]

Multi layer question. Many of the majors today started as smaller ones, then after merger after merger they grew to be what they are today. For example, United started out being owned by Boeing, Continental started as a small intra-Texas carrier, etc.

With this said though, many airlines have started many a time with industry leading pay THEN unionized. Pan Am, Braniff, and Eastern were a few. ALPA started to protect whipsaws and work rules and increase pay of the bottom feeders of the 1920s/30s/40s.

What I'm getting at Mark that in todays industry I don't think it should be a complete right off to goto an airline that is non-union with the hopes of one day bringing one in there.
I think Jetblue may work for some people. For one thing I believe JetBlue probably has a corporate culture that is somewhat pleasing. If you were to get into a large airline these days would you really want to fly with the guys that are at Northwest or US Air?
The thing I disagree with the most that has been said on here is the comment about the Jetblue guys taking off their ALPA pins. Here are guys wanting to make a change at the airline for the better and you think they don't deserve to.
Some have you have gotten so hardline about unions that you can't think of anything else.

 

[Seggy]

What I'm getting at Mark that in todays industry I don't think it should be a complete right off to goto an airline that is non-union with the hopes of one day bringing one in there.
I think Jetblue may work for some people. For one thing I believe JetBlue probably has a corporate culture that is somewhat pleasing. If you were to get into a large airline these days would you really want to fly with the guys that are at Northwest or US Air?
The thing I disagree with the most that has been said on here is the comment about the Jetblue guys taking off their ALPA pins. Here are guys wanting to make a change at the airline for the better and you think they don't deserve to.
Some have you have gotten so hardline about unions that you can't think of anything else.

Oh I have NO problems with guys personally at Jetblue. They have hooked me up MANY a time jumpseating and would never deny them a jumpseat.

I do see the points Velocipede makes though. When you are sitting in negotiations and the company says, well Jetblue pays their Airbus/EMB guys this, how would make you feel? I ran into two EMB Captains at Jetblue that are returning to USAIRWAYS as 737 FOs, said they will make more money at USAIRWAYS.

There are guys bitter at jetblue like at Northwest and USAIR. Heck there are guys bitter at FEDEX, we as pilots just have to worry about our jobs and if you are flying with a jerk, brush it off, life is to short to join in their bitterness.


After working at a nonunion carrier I am going to be VERY hardline about unions the rest of my career. Having the opportunity to be involved with ALPA, seeing the organization, and the staffers, it really does have the pilots interests in mind. No it is not perfect, but they are needed and an important tool in this industry. Jetblue will unionize, I am sure of that, but I do see the points Velocipede is making.

 

[Kevin.Held]

Ok, now i'm a bit confused. According to airlinepilotcentral.com, GoJets pilots organized with the teamsters in 2005 and the wages seem to be comparabe, if not better than most regionals (23/hr 1st year). Is the animosity just based on how the airline originated? Is my source wrong?

 

[BobDDuck]

Most of this is venting... so you've been warned.


I'm really not sure what good unions do these days. I appreciate the job protection benefits, and the major grievance issue protection (such as pay rates and such) but on a day to day basis, they don't do crap around here. Our contract has been violated almost every day for the past year in so many ways. The company has chosen to "reinturpret" many parts of the contract as well as apply non negotiated processes to many instances. And you know what? So far the union hasn't done anything. We have so many grievances pending right now, that every prescheduled arbitration date is filled until May of next year. And even once stuff goes to arbitration and we win, the company signs a piece of paper that says they will stop doing what they are doing (but the paper also says that they admit no wrong doing by agreeing to stop what they were doing) wait 2 months and then start doing the same thing again knowing full well that it will take over a year to go to arbitration again.

As I said, unions are great for protecting your job, but as of now, at least hear, they suck at protecting your quality of life.

 

[mikecweb]

Oh I have NO problems with guys personally at Jetblue. They have hooked me up MANY a time jumpseating and would never deny them a jumpseat.

I do see the points Velocipede makes though. When you are sitting in negotiations and the company says, well Jetblue pays their Airbus/EMB guys this, how would make you feel? I ran into two EMB Captains at Jetblue that are returning to USAIRWAYS as 737 FOs, said they will make more money at USAIRWAYS.

There are guys bitter at jetblue like at Northwest and USAIR. Heck there are guys bitter at FEDEX, we as pilots just have to worry about our jobs and if you are flying with a jerk, brush it off, life is to short to join in their bitterness.


After working at a nonunion carrier I am going to be VERY hardline about unions the rest of my career. Having the opportunity to be involved with ALPA, seeing the organization, and the staffers, it really does have the pilots interests in mind. No it is not perfect, but they are needed and an important tool in this industry. Jetblue will unionize, I am sure of that, but I do see the points Velocipede is making.

Great post. Thanks for the insight Mark.

 

[Seggy]

Most of this is venting... so you've been warned.


I'm really not sure what good unions do these days. I appreciate the job protection benefits, and the major grievance issue protection (such as pay rates and such) but on a day to day basis, they don't do crap around here. Our contract has been violated almost every day for the past year in so many ways. The company has chosen to "reinturpret" many parts of the contract as well as apply non negotiated processes to many instances. And you know what? So far the union hasn't done anything. We have so many grievances pending right now, that every prescheduled arbitration date is filled until May of next year. And even once stuff goes to arbitration and we win, the company signs a piece of paper that says they will stop doing what they are doing (but the paper also says that they admit no wrong doing by agreeing to stop what they were doing) wait 2 months and then start doing the same thing again knowing full well that it will take over a year to go to arbitration again.

As I said, unions are great for protecting your job, but as of now, at least hear, they suck at protecting your quality of life.

 

[falconvalley]

Ok, now i'm a bit confused. According to airlinepilotcentral.com, GoJets pilots organized with the teamsters in 2005 and the wages seem to be comparabe, if not better than most regionals (23/hr 1st year). Is the animosity just based on how the airline originated? Is my source wrong?

Well, you're looking at a category of airlines. The problem is that it doesn't tell you the whole story. Here's what led up to GoJet in it's current state...

TransStates Airlines used to connect for TWA in St. Louis. TWA was bought by American Airlines and TransStates now connects for AA. TranStates pilots want a better contract, with more pay, better QOL, etc...right? Well, TransStates management wanted to implement a bigger airplane into their company and didn't want to just start throwing out all that much more money. They not only would have to give their current pilots a raise, they would likely have to pay them even more to fly the bigger airplane. So, they created a whole new airline to get around all that. They started offering pilots a job at GoJet in TransStates interviews. The unionization occurred later on...