The urinating match.... does it continue?

Simply go to google and type in "gojets". The first few links go to very 'valuable information' on the subject. If its that easy to get the low-down on gojets and those pilots either: a.) Knew and took the job anyway, or b.) couldn't even be bothered to do that kind of research, then certainly the treatment is justified. I was glad to hear that tsa pilots don't even talk to them in the training center. The Gojet interviewees don't even mingle among tsa people waiting for the interview. :rawk:
 
Whatever happened to the gojetpilots.com website?

Anyone have any of the Anti-Gojet stickers or buttons left over?
 
GaTechKid said:
Pinnacle's -200 payscales are going to have an equal, if not larger, impact on the -900 rates than SKW -900 rates. When you have some of the lowest -200 payrates in the industry you can expect the same on the -900.
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Actually, the contract says the arbitrator has to look at "industry average." So, let's do that, shall we?

Mesaba - same wages for FOs no matter what, 5 year CA makes $66 on the -900
Mesa - same deal with FOs, 5 year CA gets $68 on the -900
Comair - -900 rates are the same as the -700, FOs start at $22, 5 year CA $66
Skywest - Same rate for the -900/-700, FOs get $19 to start, 5 year CA $67

This is what we have to look at. It's tough to get the bar raised when all the other -900 operators out there have either jumped on a slight override from their -200 flying or been hammered in bankruptcy. MESA, oddly enough, has the highest 5 year CA rate. A 5 year CA at Pinnacle at CURRENT rates only makes $5 an hour less than a Skywest -900 CA.
 
At the regional level, the pay rates ALPA is able to negotiate is gravy.

The meat and potatoes that ALPA gives us regional pilots is career protection/insurance.
 
Velocipede said:
That's why I refer to them as PROTOSCABS. They're not technically SCABS yet, but given the chance, they will be.
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Come on, dude. You have a lot of good arguments, but your train has totally jumped the track here.

What, are we in a Spielberg flick with "pre-crime"?

It's a BIG F###ING LEAP OF LOGIC to say that because they took jobs at a non-union airline they would cross a picket line if given the chance.
 
Case in point: one of the guys that was on our negotiating committe (and probably would have been the next MEC chair) is now at jetBlue. NONE of us think he turned his back on ALPA, abandoned us, etc. He moved on to a better job closer to home. He's the last guy that would cross a picket line, too. There's a lot of guys at Colgan and Skywest that wouldn't cross a picket line, but they're not union, either. It's a crazy generalization to assume that just b/c someone is at a non-union carrier, they're anti-union.
 
Aeroman said:
Simply go to google and type in "gojets". The first few links go to very 'valuable information' on the subject. If its that easy to get the low-down on gojets and those pilots either: a.) Knew and took the job anyway, or b.) couldn't even be bothered to do that kind of research, then certainly the treatment is justified. I was glad to hear that tsa pilots don't even talk to them in the training center. The Gojet interviewees don't even mingle among tsa people waiting for the interview. :rawk:
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There's nothing on the first page of returns that hasn't already been said here. In fact, one of the first pages I saw was Jtrain's blog. Not everybody is gonna know to go to google and type in gojets if they're applying to the airlines. I first became interested in the airlines long before gojets existed and I had only stumbled upon them twice. The first time when I applied to Trans States and only because I was referred to an actual Trans States pilot. The 2nd time was on here. It is possible for the word to not get to everybody. I just happen to know someone at Trans States by chance and I had spend a whole night of doing internet searches to discover this forum. I had no idea something like this existed on such a scale. I can only imagine the people out there who don't know. Ignorance does exist. The reason the Trans States pilot was warning me was because had I not been warned, I would have never even heard of GoJets until the Trans States interview. Anyone who refuses to acknowledge that this could happen is not looking at the big picture. I'm sure a heck of a lot more pilots know about GoJets these days, but you can't assume everybody has been enlightened.

Someone, who knows nothing about unions and the airlines could apply at Trans States and have no idea what they're getting into. Eight years ago, when I started applying at the airlines, I had no idea what I was doing. I was literally looking up reservation phone numbers in the phonebook for AE, CoEx, Chic Ex, Ozark, etc...and trying to manipulate my way to a human resources or chief pilot's office. I didn't know anything about how all this works!

Trust me, I have first hand experience with this. I somehow ended up on the right side of the workforce and much of it has to with networking and this very website.

Thank You, Doug and Kristie
 
"Come on, dude. You have a lot of good arguments, but your train has totally jumped the track here."

What he said (without the cussin')...

I see JBlue as a good, mid-level, major job. Wouldn't be the end of the world if a guy ended up there while shooting for something a little better. One day they might actually vote in a union, and then everything Velo has said about them is erased by his own argument. End of story. Having such a stance makes no sense to me.

If I was a 1000 TPIC guy looking to move out of the regionals into something bigger and better, I'd go to JBlue in a heartbeat.

I'll always be polite and respectful to any JetBlue pilot I run across and they are certainly welcome on my jumpseat. I see them as my equal.

If someone wants to target an airline that caused the most trouble and financial hurt for the legacies, I'd say it was Southwest for the last 20 years.
 
kellwolf said:
Case in point: one of the guys that was on our negotiating committe (and probably would have been the next MEC chair) is now at jetBlue. NONE of us think he turned his back on ALPA, abandoned us, etc....It's a crazy generalization to assume that just b/c someone is at a non-union carrier, they're anti-union.
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Then he's absolutely the WORST case....a Union guy who knowingly took a non-Union job that undercuts Union contracts. Why? He, of all people should know the effect of his abrogation of his principles.

Simply put, it demonstrates to airline management there are UNION pilots who are willing to cross the line for empty promises of upgrades, to fly a bigger jet or to get a small increase in pay. And when things go south at jetBlue, the pay can be cut at the whim of the managers because jetBlue pilots HAVE NO CONTRACTUAL PROTECTION. What are they going to say when the CEO says, "We can't compete with Virgin, so we're cutting you back to $95 an hour."? Nothing, that's what.

I'd quit aviation before I went to some protoscab outfit like jetBlue. At least I'd have my self-respect.
 
DE727UPS said:
I'll always be polite and respectful to any JetBlue pilot I run across and they are certainly welcome on my jumpseat. I see them as my equal.
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And you can afford the luxury of that attitude because, as a cargo pilot, they aren't undercutting your contract.

But, to view them as your "equal" indicates you have some self-image issues.
 
Velocipede said:
Then he's absolutely the WORST case....a Union guy who knowingly took a non-Union job that undercuts Union contracts. Why? He, of all people should know the effect of his abrogation of his principles.
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Having worked alongside the pilot that kellwolf mentions, and even lobbied for him for the position of MEC Chairman, I was pretty disappointed to see him choose JetBlue. It seemed very out of character, because he really was one of the best trade-unionists I've met. To this day, I still don't understand it. He lives within driving distance of JFK, so that was his primary motivation, but I still wouldn't have been able to do it.

That being said, I guarantee you that this guy would never cross a picket line. As much as I dislike JetBlue, it's not true that all of them are just one step away from crossing a picket line. Some JetBlue pilots still wear their ALPA pins and voice a pro-union message. Earlier this year, a large group of JetBlue pilots went to Herndon to talk with ALPA about an organizing drive. There are good trade-unionists at JetBlue that are just waiting for the opportunity to unionize.
 
surreal1221 said:
What sort of opportunity are they waiting for?
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There doesn't seem to be an environment at the airline right now that would be conducive for an organizing drive. Unfortunately, it usually takes some sort of big negative event for the majority of pilots at a non-union airline to wake up and realize that it's time for a union. At first, it seemed like the really low EMB rates might have been enough to convince the Blue dudes that it was time for a union, but they seemed to calm down quickly afterwards. Unfortunately, I think it will be a while before a majority of the Blue pilots realize how important union protection is.
 
That's what I figured.

Having to wait for management to dick something up.

Perhaps that's more of a deterent to management screwing with employees, than an actual union is.

The fear of having a union come in is greater than the fear of actually having that union established on property.
 
surreal1221 said:
That's what I figured.

Having to wait for management to dick something up.

Perhaps that's more of a deterent to management screwing with employees, than an actual union is.

The fear of having a union come in is greater than the fear of actually having that union established on property.
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True, but the problem is that that doesn't provide protection for the individual pilot. We've seen at Skywest where management is able to quietly terminate pilots here and there without much word getting out to the general pilot population. Those pilots that are terminated have no recourse without a union, unless they can claim some sort of discrimination in court. The threat of a union certainly forces many airlines to keep pay and working conditions up, but it doesn't provide protection for individual pilots.
 
Good point. I hadn't thought about the individual pilot too much, trying to keep the "We are all in this together," mindset.

At least those of us who work, or who plan to work at union operators.
 
Okay, so riddle me this. How do we get those non-union guys to go union? Simply wait for tragedy to strike? I'd like to think, that like PCL128 mentioned, the former union guys can start an effort from within. But, then again, they've just become "protoscabs" themselves, so what's the point, eh?

If Pinnacle winds up with a sub-par contract, I'm not going to blame Mesa, Skywest, Colgan, etc. We won't have any further than the mirror to go to find the blame for that one.
 
falconvalley said:
I realize that alot of JetBlue, Virgin and Skybus pilots probably know better, but do you really think that all the GoJet pilots know what's going on? Many of them have to be new to the industry and though many of us would say it would be easy to say "no thanks", I'd bet many of them are just like normal human beings and have a hard time deciding to change their surroundings. If you've never been a member of a union, how are you gonna know how things work around here? Should isolated tribe people know what a scab is?
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No slack for the new. Being an airline pilot isn't like signing up for a college class "I'll sign up and check it out latter". A mature person would do all needed research and become an informed newbie. Then again thats just my opinion.
 
The problem is, a lot of people don't know where to go for the information. I agree that you should do research before leaping into this whole thing. But, if I hadn't stumbled (literally) across Jetcareers, I was one step towards GIA. I was more than a few steps towards MAPD until I came to my senses. Back when I was in high school and wanted to do this, I thought the only way to get to the airlines was through the military. Since I didn't have 20/20 vision, I wrote it off and started focusing on other careers. I didn't even know there WAS a civilian aviation path!
 
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