The urinating match.... does it continue?
- Thread starter Avalon781ML
- Start date
Velocipede
New Member
Lots of rebuttal, so little time...let's get going:
Stinger, while the issues are different, the response should be the same. In the case of GoJet, its an alter-ego operation designed to circumvent a Union contract. For jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus, they are non-Union outfits who undercut established Union contract wage rates. When jetBlue started up, they were about 30% lower than most legacy narrowbody rates. Since UAL, USAir and Delta used the bankruptcy court to abrogate their contracts, the legacy narrowbody rates have come down to jetBlue levels AND these guys have had their pensions robbed from them. Why? Because jetBlue proved to airline managers you could get pilots to work for 30% less and ZERO pension. Now along comes Virgin who pays 30% less than jetBlue and Skybus who pays 50% less. ANYONE who goes to work for a non-Union outfit who undercuts Union contracts should not be treated with anything but contempt. They are undermining YOUR career and career prospects for entirely selfish reasons...namely they can't get a flying job anywhere else.
And they'll always use the same justification for doing it, "I had to feed my family." Well, that's what scabs say when they cross picket lines. These are the kinds of guys who will cross your picket line if they think they'll be able to jump ahead of you on a seniority list. That's why I refer to them as PROTOSCABS. They're not technically SCABS yet, but given the chance, they will be.
Guys like these don't deserve the time of day from any pilot, much less someone who is not attuned to the state of the industry. Get yourself a copy of "Flying the Line" and "Flying the Line 2" and read up on the history of ALPA. See for yourself the damage that SCABS and PROTOSCABS have done in the past. Then you'll understand why these guys deserve nothing but contempt. Remember, "Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
Non-Union carriers who pay competitive wages/benefits don't fall into the catagory of PROTOSCAB airlines. However, jetBlue gutted our contracts and the direct result is 3 legacy carriers went to bankruptcy court in order to match the labor rates jetBlue managers were enjoying. Another got their pay rates slashed by an arbitrator. Other Union pilots were forced by threat of layoff/furlough to "voluntarily" reduce their compensation to jetBlue levels. Now along comes Virgin and Skybus lowering the bar even further.
They may not have crossed a picket line, but their effect on the piloting profession has been just as destructive. These pilots, due to thier own actions, deserve to be shunned. They also do not deserve professiona courtesies that are Union negotiated benefits...JUMPSEATS.
Stinger, while the issues are different, the response should be the same. In the case of GoJet, its an alter-ego operation designed to circumvent a Union contract. For jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus, they are non-Union outfits who undercut established Union contract wage rates. When jetBlue started up, they were about 30% lower than most legacy narrowbody rates. Since UAL, USAir and Delta used the bankruptcy court to abrogate their contracts, the legacy narrowbody rates have come down to jetBlue levels AND these guys have had their pensions robbed from them. Why? Because jetBlue proved to airline managers you could get pilots to work for 30% less and ZERO pension. Now along comes Virgin who pays 30% less than jetBlue and Skybus who pays 50% less. ANYONE who goes to work for a non-Union outfit who undercuts Union contracts should not be treated with anything but contempt. They are undermining YOUR career and career prospects for entirely selfish reasons...namely they can't get a flying job anywhere else.
And they'll always use the same justification for doing it, "I had to feed my family." Well, that's what scabs say when they cross picket lines. These are the kinds of guys who will cross your picket line if they think they'll be able to jump ahead of you on a seniority list. That's why I refer to them as PROTOSCABS. They're not technically SCABS yet, but given the chance, they will be.
Guys like these don't deserve the time of day from any pilot, much less someone who is not attuned to the state of the industry. Get yourself a copy of "Flying the Line" and "Flying the Line 2" and read up on the history of ALPA. See for yourself the damage that SCABS and PROTOSCABS have done in the past. Then you'll understand why these guys deserve nothing but contempt. Remember, "Those who do not remember history are doomed to repeat it."
Non-Union carriers who pay competitive wages/benefits don't fall into the catagory of PROTOSCAB airlines. However, jetBlue gutted our contracts and the direct result is 3 legacy carriers went to bankruptcy court in order to match the labor rates jetBlue managers were enjoying. Another got their pay rates slashed by an arbitrator. Other Union pilots were forced by threat of layoff/furlough to "voluntarily" reduce their compensation to jetBlue levels. Now along comes Virgin and Skybus lowering the bar even further.
They may not have crossed a picket line, but their effect on the piloting profession has been just as destructive. These pilots, due to thier own actions, deserve to be shunned. They also do not deserve professiona courtesies that are Union negotiated benefits...JUMPSEATS.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Since as you said, you work in an environment that is not the regionals (corporate correct?), you may not be use to this. So I'll say it real easy like.
In a union industry, such as the airlines, all feedback is subjective.
Velocipede said:
Velocipede hits another HOME RUN!!!1111
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately....there really isn't an "other side of the coin" in this case. If you work for GoJets, you are stabbing your peers in the back. Plain and simple.
I'm curious, since you did have a chat with this guy about his working for GoJets.....what did he have to say???? I'd like to hear the justification.
People, there is ABSOLUTELY no reason to work at GoJets....every regional airline is hiring these days.....many are taking people with pulses, and not much more. Stay away from the GoJets and Mesa type operations. Your career will thank you.
Sure, get your information wherever you want and form your own opinions. But I'll offer this tidbit as well. JetCareers is a wealth of good industry information. There are many pro. pilots on JC and most (if not all) are here to help IMPROVE the industry by educating others on what's right/ not right in the airlines today. Just because it's an internet message board, do not discredit the quality of information you receive.
Tim
New Member
I would interested to hear what this GJ pilot had to say also. What sold him on that airline.
What people have to realized is that JC is about as close to the truth on many goings on in the industry as you will find. This site is full of pilot who are on the line every day. I am not a pro pilot but I can contribute from my ramp experiences and knowledge of what is going on in the industry also. If I was asked if this site was credible I would respond with a "HELL YEAH" because of the true professionals that are here. The more we (JC) can educate the guys wanting to fly for a living about the good and bad of the industry the better the industry standards have a chance of becoming. If we dont then you get the Gulfstreams and GJ of the world hiring pilots and paying them minimum wage.
I only wish I had been JC educated before I went to ATA in Orlando
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I think it's a little unrealistic to point the finger at jetBlue. While their labor costs might have been a contributing factor, I don't think it's exactly fair to lay the blame of bankruptcy at their feet. AirTran, SWA and the other LCCs had a bit to do with it, too. I'd go as far to say the major contributing factor to those bankruptcies was poor management at those carriers. They couldn't get their costs under control b/c of corporate waste that had been building for years. Now the tables have turned, and SWA's under pressure to cut THEIR wages now thanks to the labor concessions in bankruptcy. Who are we gonna blame next time the pendulum swings, and it's the former LCCs having to cut their labor costs b/c places like Delta, NWA and United used bankruptcy to get the upper hand with cheaper wages?
By your way of thinking, Skywest SHOULD be included in there. After all, we're gonna have a tough time getting a decent wage for the -900 based on their pay there....
Velocipede
New Member
Nor did I in this thread or the 100s of other posts I've done on this topic. All I'm saying is the payrate established by jetBlue is the same one imposed on the legacys by the bankruptcy court.
Cause and effect.
Now along comes Virgin with a rate 30% lower than jetBlue. And Skybus 30% lower than Virgin. Where does it end?
I'll tell you where. At my cockpit door when the protoscabs come asking for a free ride to work. If enough of us band together and keep these clowns from getting to work, perhaps their protoscab airlines would collapse.
But, I like dreaming...
There are far too many of you out there who think, "A pilot is a pilot is a pilot" or "I want to freeload on jetBlue" or whatever reason you'll conjure up and give these scum a Union negotiated benefit while they stab you in the back.
Wake up! Stop aiding and abetting the erosion of YOUR pay and benefits.
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Woot!!!11
falconvalley
Absentee Dad of the OOTSK, Runner, Cat Frustrator
So you're saying that JetBlue's payscale is a direct result of the mistakes of pilots...even the newbies? Sounds more like JetBlue is taking advantage of a multitude of things including thin profit margins, high gas prices, rate wars, bad credit, and such because that's what caused the cuts. Airlines like JetBlue won't prevail. And yes, there will be more upstarts in the future that will try the same thing, perhaps during the next cycle.
Pilots are only part of the problem and are not likely going to get management to stop taking advantage of business, especially at a non-union carrier. It's hard enough for a union-backed pilot group to get things done. You think a pilot, who already knows they are a tool of the company, is gonna give a rip about what you think? BTW, Herpes never really goes away. It just hides in your spine or something.
When their losses exceed their credit. I don't think there are enough people out there who will really dig Skybus. They won't last. Virgin can try to compete, but they're in America now. Sure they claim to be the ultimate of airline travel, but once people figure out that once again, you get what you pay for, they will start searching around again. So what if the pay is low?? We'll eventually get it back and they might get a pay raise, too someday. And if they don't fine, they get whatever they deserve. Some of them are trying to get to greener pastures, anyway.
You are dreaming. We're pilots, not robots. We all think independently and have enough problems as it is, with profiles and CRM and contract negotiations and fear of layoffs and fear of having to strike and chief pilots and mean, heartless check airmen, and faa well you can see what I'm saying. The last thing we want to do is be told exactly who it is that gets onboard. I see that as an oppurtunity to educate someone new. Believe me, you won't disrupt jack with that little tool. You can certainly try, though. I know some pilots who ask for an ALPA card. They have their reasons, though and it's not because their MEC gave them their reasons.
I've heard this all before. "Joe Blow took all of my pay and all of my retirement. It's HIS fault." No sir, you got into a tough business. No line pilot caused this. Comeon, even I know this. You want to get your money back? Your right hand will help. You know, the one that manipulates the throttles? You don't have to push them suckers up if you don't want to. When it comes time to negotiate, leave them at idle if you have to and get what you want. So what if a few cross the line. Fine, whatever...there's always a few of them. There aren't enough to go around, though. Don't you see the writing on the wall? This is all part of the cycle.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Which legacies had rates imposed by a bankruptcy court? Last time I checked, all were agreed to and voted on by the unions there. Although I have a hard time finding a NWA mainline guy that voted "yes," it passed some how. Even Delta still has higher pay than jetBlue (source:APC). It's only by a couple of dollars, but it's still higher. I think what we're seeing is a myriad of factors finally affecting the costs at the legacies. They were managed more or less the same way they were pre-deregulation, and it caught up with them. Upstarts like SWA (yeah, they were an upstart, and they DID pay less than the others) changed with the times and still turned a profit when others were bleeding cash. The legacies failed to adapt and were forced into bankruptcy b/c of it. Pilot wages didn't force them into bankruptcy, mis-management did. If you go back and look at the financial records, both NWA and Delta would have turned profits for most of the quarters they were in bankruptcy if it weren't for one thing: payments to the lawyers and other fees associated with the bankruptcy. The fact that jetBlue's pilots flew for less didn't have anything to do with the operating margins at Delta or NWA. I'm not saying that lower wages at some of the non-union carriers wasn't a contributing factor, I just don't feel it's the devil you do.
When the Shiny Airbus syndrome wears off. I've seen Skybus' wages, and it's pathetic. Personally, I wouldn't go fly an Airbus for regional CA pay, which is essentially what they're doing. Unfortunately, I know plenty of CAs here with Shiny Big Jet Syndrome that would. We're already seeing it just on our new -900 flying.
This is all fine and good until you need to get to work, and GoJets, Skywest, jetBlue etc is the only way of getting to point B from point A. Now you've either got to be a hypocrite or explain why you used the commuter policy with a valid flight (or two) on the schedule.
Velocipede
New Member
Then, don't be a hypocrite. You will NEVER see me or anyone I know on a jetBlue, Virgin, or Skybus airplane. If you use them to commute, then you've obligated yourself to allowing them on your airplane.
Then YOU become part of the problem as well. Then, when you're wages are cut because someone is making money flying Airbii for lower than Regional rates, YOU have nothing to complain about. Because YOU enabled them to undercut YOU by providing them a free ride to work.
BTW, ask a UAL pilot how their narrowbody pay rates got reduced to jetBlue levels.
Here's what I don't understand about this whole arguement. Yes if you look at it in a certain light those airlines are underecutting your pay. But isn't it up to your union and it's reps to put a stop to that kind of crap? What does it say about the strength of your union if it allows a non-union carrier, that you don't even compete with, lower your pay scale and take away your benefits?
I honestly don't understand. This whole union thing is great and I'm definetly a supporter of unions but I think it's a sad state of affairs to deny people from seeing their families because the shortcommings of your own union.
I know we've hashed this out alot on this forum but I think the above is a valid arguement and I look forward to your answer, hopefully without using "protoscab" 10 times.
I honestly don't understand. This whole union thing is great and I'm definetly a supporter of unions but I think it's a sad state of affairs to deny people from seeing their families because the shortcommings of your own union.
I know we've hashed this out alot on this forum but I think the above is a valid arguement and I look forward to your answer, hopefully without using "protoscab" 10 times.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Unions can't wave a magic wand and say "presto" and all of a sudden the problem is fixed. What exactly do you expect the union to do when carriers like Skybus and Virgin America undercut our pay and workrules and then our carriers go into bankruptcy? Because the law is tilted so heavily in favor of the corporations, the union has virtually no power in bankruptcy to protect pay, work rules, and benefits. No, this problem can't be solved just by the union reps. This problem takes involvement from the rank-and-file line pilots. Velocipede is absolutely right. Giving a free ride to work to someone that has practically stabbed you in the back by undercutting you makes absolutely no sense. Why would you help someone that is deliberately undercutting you and the rest of the unionized pilot groups?
surreal1221
Well-Known Member
Who's angry?
I don't see anyone angry right now. What I do see though, is a collective group of professional pilots debating each other's viewpoints in regards to certain airlines, work rules, pay rates, etc.
No anger though.
Velocipede
New Member
If they want to work for a non-Union PROTOSCAB airline, fine. But, they'd better live in base because there are a whole lot of pilots who are starting to realize the cause and effect scumbag outfits like jetBlue, Virgin and Skybus have on OUR paychecks.