The old warhorse

mjg407 said:
I would add to this scenario that I've seen the same thing when hiring ex-airline or ex-military guys here. It's a tough move for anyone to be in charge for years on end and then not be, that's why we are wary of hiring high time pilots. On the other hand, it's up to the individual to get his act together and realize he's part of team and do his part. I have one copilot who is a retired SJ 777 captain, and he's the best copilot we have, had another what was a retired mil type, and he didn't want to listen, that's why he's no longer here.
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From my experience, generally the really good Capts make very good F/Os. Poor Capts make very poor F/Os.
 
Lee D said:
True. There's no reason to pussyfoot around an issue caused by an inflated ego that is causing real crew issues.

Velo, just to read that story makes me feel tired. When they're not at work, you wonder how people like that treat their loved ones, if they truly have any. This is probably the kind of guy that refers to himself in third person during everyday conversation. "Captain K is hungry and needs a crewmeal!" (All I can hear now in my head is Duffman from the Simpsons.)
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"Duffman," Gasp, "Can't die, only actors - who - play - Duffman can," groan," can die."
 
mjg407 said:
Aloft,
The opposite happens as well. A lot of folks that I deal with in the FAA look down upon military guys. It's one of those you like what you know type things.
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I know more than a few people who have this mentality. I think its pretty common up here.
 
mjg407 said:
had another that was a retired mil type, and he didn't want to listen, that's why he's no longer here.
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I saw the same thing in 135 freight. "That's not how we did it in the Air Force" Well skippy, you're not in the USAF anymore.

One of the schools I worked at got a new CP that was a retired O-6 MC-130 pilot. We went around and aaround about the checklists that he wanted us to use. He wanted us to use a 35 page floppy ring bound "how to fly manual", while I wanted a simple "check these things so you don't crash" 5x7 plastic checklist. He reasoning was "that's what we used in the USAF". That argument doesn't impress this ex jarhead.
 
USMCmech said:
He reasoning was "that's what we used in the USAF". That argument doesn't impress this ex jarhead.
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Well, there IS such a thing as taking good practices from a previous life and trying to apply them at what you're doing currently.

In your case, where there is a significant difference (military flying vs flight school) there might be an argument for bringing something that worked well in one and applying it to the other.

In this situation it may not have been the right thing...but it's equally as foolish to categorically deny a change in practice just because it's how someone did it somewhere else.
 
Hacker15e said:
Well, there IS such a thing as taking good practices from a previous life and trying to apply them at what you're doing currently.

there might be an argument for bringing something that worked well in one and applying it to the other.

but it's equally as foolish to categorically deny a change in practice just because it's how someone did it somewhere else.
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Unfortunately, the vast majority of change is for change sake. In other words, it's about people trying to put their mark on something for ego stroking.
 
I have to admit when I came over from the Navy the difference between how the military uses checklists and how Alaska does it was very vexing.

Military checklists are read and do. Alaska has you position the switches using a flow pattern and uses the checklists to verify switch positions.

But, you have to conform to your current situation. By all means, use your experience to guide your decision making. But, you're a part of a an FAA approved system, you might as well just RAM dump the military stuff and get on the bandwagon at your airline.
 
Velocipede said:
I have to admit when I came over from the Navy the difference between how the military uses checklists and how Alaska does it was very vexing.

Military checklists are read and do. Alaska has you position the switches using a flow pattern and uses the checklists to verify switch positions.

But, you have to conform to your current situation. By all means, use your experience to guide your decision making. But, you're a part of a an FAA approved system, you might as well just RAM dump the military stuff and get on the bandwagon at your airline.
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I had the same issues coming out of the Army. I was used to hearing checklists read and done.. and emulated the same thing in my own flying.

When I got to the airlines, the 'flow' process kinda baffled me for a few days. Now I'm all over it. You're right- it's much easier to just dump what you DID know and just relearn it all over again.

I think the rule of Primacy may work against some of these 'Old Dog' military types when learning the proverbial new tricks.

Personally, I think anybody that causes that many problems should get the appropriate write ups from the Captains they annoy and get flushed at their 1 year checkride.
 
USMCmech said:
I saw the same thing in 135 freight. "That's not how we did it in the Air Force" Well skippy, you're not in the USAF anymore.
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Way back when I was on a training committee during a merger. We had a number of airlines coming together and each airline had people with previous backgrounds including TWA, Eastern, Western, National, etc as well as the three main airlines in the merger. During the discussion of the checklists for the 727 we got a lot of "We did it this way at _____" or "They do it this way at ______." Each had some good and some less than good. I suggested we cherry pick so that the best way was our way and our way was the best way. It was my introduction to turf wars.

However the biggest change occurred when we went to having the Capt run the emerg/abnormal checklists and the F/O fly. For quite some time that was challenged but once people saw how well it worked, the shift occurred. Now in gen-av, I find that many still have CAPT fly during emerg and F/O run the checklist. Waste of resources and imbalanced task loading...
 
Orange Anchor said:
However the biggest change occurred when we went to having the Capt run the emerg/abnormal checklists and the F/O fly. For quite some time that was challenged but once people saw how well it worked, the shift occurred. Now in gen-av, I find that many still have CAPT fly during emerg and F/O run the checklist. Waste of resources and imbalanced task loading...
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There are many things I dislike about your former employer.

However, the quoted passage is probably one of the best techniques I've run across in a crew environment. We adopted the format at the former employer. I resisted at first, but after the first line use of it, loved it.
 
Polar742 said:
There are many things I dislike about your former employer.

However, the quoted passage is probably one of the best techniques I've run across in a crew environment. We adopted the format at the former employer. I resisted at first, but after the first line use of it, loved it.
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There were many things I disliked about my former employer but the training dept was light years ahead of some of the training depts I came in contact with. (sorry if that offends.. after Continental I think we were one of the first to adopt grading up mistakes that were caught and handled without consequence instead of belaboring the debrief listing all the mistakes without noting the correct actions <monitoring, challenge, response, etc )

The Capt running the checklist actually came out of a NASA study and used first at a regional. One of our Check Airmen read about the program, noticed that during Emergency Descents when the F/O was flying there was often confusion over who did what. The pressurization panel was right in the F/Os face and s/he was used to using it.. for the Capt, it could be tough with glasses and at night. Somethings were often missed and who grabbed the speedbrake. So.. the first change was to make the ED procedures seat specific and the first action was Capt flies. Yes, I know this is not a Capt runs the checklist situation. But it was the beginning of looking at who did what and where the final authority lay and who did what.

Instead of interrupting the Capt flying with the F/O doing "Bloviation Valve Selector Normal/Shutoff" and the Capt being distracted, it boiled down to after the bold actions (which we did away most of), it was, "You have the airplane.. we are at 220kts, clean, level at 3500.. you have the radios, Advise ATC... I have the checklist..." and the Capt would advise the F/O of each decision. It worked like a charm and in no time at all, everyone jumped on it.

Now retired from airline ops and back to Gen-Av I have seen that in some, if not many cases, that has yet to trickle down and many checklists are still read/do. (even the normals) and some are still calling out Normal and Expected stuff on engine start (Valve open.. N2... oil pressure.. N1 etc). Fortunately we don't at my new house and we only call when things are unexpected or abnormal... er.. 'non-normal' to use the jargon.
 
I must agree with your assessment of the training from what I have been able to partake in.

Thanks for the historical insight where the process came from.

The old PSA DO D.J.H. did one of my types, and I got alot of that historical insight from him.
 
Re: Wait a minute...

ppragman said:
Really, If I fly less than 80hrs per month every month, I feel like I'm getting away with something. At my old job, I flew 134hrs in jan, and my buddy flew 154 in december. Every job I've ever had (now at 3 full time non-seasonal aviation jobs) I've flown at least 20hrs per week. It'd kinda be nice to fly 550/year.

To be honest though, it does kind of suck. Trying to fly 1000/year and go to college is incredibly uncomfortable.
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i dont know much about civvie regs. but in the corps you are limited to 100 hrs in a 30 day period. not necesariy a calendar month, jsut a 30 day period. if you go over that due to ops schedule error then you get grounded. and that includes deployments to war zones. so based on that the max you could get is 1200/yr. but that is if you were deployed for a whole year. based on back home times, well i "flew" in the back as a aerial gunner and got 450 in just over a year. and that was alot. i had 350 for a 7 month deployment and was hgihest for the AO's
 
Re: Wait a minute...

juan valdez said:
i dont know much about civvie regs. but in the corps you are limited to 100 hrs in a 30 day period. not necesariy a calendar month, jsut a 30 day period. if you go over that due to ops schedule error then you get grounded. and that includes deployments to war zones. so based on that the max you could get is 1200/yr. but that is if you were deployed for a whole year. based on back home times, well i "flew" in the back as a aerial gunner and got 450 in just over a year. and that was alot. i had 350 for a 7 month deployment and was hgihest for the AO's
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Part 135 you get 500 in a quarter, 800 in two consecutive quarters and 1400 in a year. 121 is 1000 I think.
 
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