The old warhorse

aloft

New Member
Note: This is a real-world "you're the captain..." scenario overheard between two airline captains while in the waiting room at my AME's office on Monday. One had the very FO described below and was soliciting advice from his associate on how to handle the guy.

You're the captain, and your FO is a recently-retired Air Force colonel with gobs of heavy jet aircraft commander experience, but little interest in subordinating himself to you in the cockpit. Examples of his behavior: at some point you call for cowl anti-ice, he dismisses the direction and grunts "nah, we don't need that". You ask him to calculate the landing distance for a wet runway, he again dismisses it and grunts "nah, we'll be fine. plenty of runway". In his mind, he's the captain, and just letting you think you are.

How do you handle this? How might CRM be affected?
 

Cptnchia

Dissatisfied Customer
Had a captain tell me about this very thing once. Except the captain was a female and only about 5'2". The new hire FO was the exact duplicate of the guy you mentioned. Apparently he also had an issue with women in authority roles and didn't mind telling her about it. She handled it by throwing him off the airplane and getting skeds to send out another FO.

That's the same way I'd handle it. Bounce his butt as soon as we landed. Let Pro Standards straighten him out.
 

ppragman

FLIPY FLAPS!
Had a captain tell me about this very thing once. Except the captain was a female and only about 5'2". The new hire FO was the exact duplicate of the guy you mentioned. Apparently he also had an issue with women in authority roles and didn't mind telling her about it. She handled it by throwing him off the airplane and getting skeds to send out another FO.

That's the same way I'd handle it. Bounce his butt as soon as we landed. Let Pro Standards straighten him out.
"What did the five fingers say to the face? SLAAAP!"
 

ppragman

FLIPY FLAPS!
Note: This is a real-world "you're the captain..." scenario overheard between two airline captains while in the waiting room at my AME's office on Monday. One had the very FO described below and was soliciting advice from his associate on how to handle the guy.

You're the captain, and your FO is a recently-retired Air Force colonel with gobs of heavy jet aircraft commander experience, but little interest in subordinating himself to you in the cockpit. Examples of his behavior: at some point you call for cowl anti-ice, he dismisses the direction and grunts "nah, we don't need that". You ask him to calculate the landing distance for a wet runway, he again dismisses it and grunts "nah, we'll be fine. plenty of runway". In his mind, he's the captain, and just letting you think you are.

How do you handle this? How might CRM be affected?

Military pilots don't really fly that much either, so chances are even though he thinks he's a billy badass, he's probably got less time then the CA anyway.
 

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
I had 5200 military hours when I got hired. How many did/do you have?
Ah snap...That's kind of like what we told the new guys when they came to the ship....

"....Kid I have more time on the ####ter, underway, than you have in the Navy. Just listen first ask questions later...."
 

ppragman

FLIPY FLAPS!
I had 5200 military hours when I got hired. How many did/do you have?
How long were you in for? I bet you flew less than 1000 per year. Not to say that you were low time, but if you compare that with total time coming out of working your way up on the civie side, every guy with a single tour that I've ever met doesn't have as much total time as a guy who's been flying similar equipment as a civilian. Not to say that the times are equivalent, but that's what I've seen so far. There may be exceptions, or I may be wrong, but enlighten me. Everyguy I've seen flew about 400hrs - 600hrs per year unless they were deployed.
 

Nick

Well-Known Member
Wait a minute...

How long were you in for? I bet you flew less than 1000 per year. Not to say that you were low time, but if you compare that with total time coming out of working your way up on the civie side, every guy with a single tour that I've ever met doesn't have as much total time as a guy who's been flying similar equipment as a civilian.
This does not make sense.

A civilian airline pilot is limited to 1000 hours per year, the same figure you use as a benchmark for 'barely flying' in the military.

1000 hours a year is a lot. 400-600 hours per year sounds about right. Corporate pilots, airline pilots on reserve, and lots of others may never fly more than that range in a normal year.
 

ppragman

FLIPY FLAPS!
Re: Wait a minute...

Wow, I only know a couple people who fly less than 1000 hrs per year. I know a couple of AK Air pilots who fly about 700, and a NAC guy who's so senior that he only flies about 300 per year, and a medevac guy or two, but really? Hell, 1000hrs per year isn't that much compared to my last job that was at 1400hrs per year. Seriously? Wow, I stand corrected. So most of you guys don't even hit your reserve huh? Cool!
 

ppragman

FLIPY FLAPS!
Re: Wait a minute...

This does not make sense.

A civilian airline pilot is limited to 1000 hours per year, the same figure you use as a benchmark for 'barely flying' in the military.

1000 hours a year is a lot. 400-600 hours per year sounds about right. Corporate pilots, airline pilots on reserve, and lots of others may never fly more than that range in a normal year.
I did not know, hell, the vast majority of people I know will do between 1000 and 1400 per year part 135, or will do between 800-1000 as 121ers. Cool, I stand corrected.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
Re: Wait a minute...

Wow, I only know a couple people who fly less than 1000 hrs per year. I know a couple of AK Air pilots who fly about 700, and a NAC guy who's so senior that he only flies about 300 per year, and a medevac guy or two, but really? Hell, 1000hrs per year isn't that much compared to my last job that was at 1400hrs per year. Seriously? Wow, I stand corrected. So most of you guys don't even hit your reserve huh? Cool!
Are you kidding? I've averaged 550 hours per year since my career started. I was well on my way to only flying about 400 hours this year if I had kept flying stand-up lines, but I got bumped back to reserve. I'd probably kill myself if I had to fly 1000 hours in a year. Sounds like excruciating torture.
 

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
Sounds like someone needs to be reminded of their position in life.

It's dudes like that which give ex-military guys a bad name.
 

ppragman

FLIPY FLAPS!
Re: Wait a minute...

Are you kidding? I've averaged 550 hours per year since my career started. I was well on my way to only flying about 400 hours this year if I had kept flying stand-up lines, but I got bumped back to reserve. I'd probably kill myself if I had to fly 1000 hours in a year. Sounds like excruciating torture.
Really, If I fly less than 80hrs per month every month, I feel like I'm getting away with something. At my old job, I flew 134hrs in jan, and my buddy flew 154 in december. Every job I've ever had (now at 3 full time non-seasonal aviation jobs) I've flown at least 20hrs per week. It'd kinda be nice to fly 550/year.

To be honest though, it does kind of suck. Trying to fly 1000/year and go to college is incredibly uncomfortable.
 

Velocipede

New Member
Re: Wait a minute...

Your experience does not translate to either military OR 121 flying. Therefore, you cannot make assumptions about either.

Think about it.
 

IslandFlyer

Well-Known Member
Military pilots don't really fly that much either, so chances are even though he thinks he's a billy badass, he's probably got less time then the CA anyway.

Fixed wing, rotary wing, Army, Navy, Air Force, Coast Guard, Commissioned, Warrant Officers....?

I think that is a pretty generalized statement because there are so many variables as to how many hours a pilot will fly between the different branches and different ranks.

I don't agree that military pilots "don't really fly that much either".

How many hours did the guys you flew with in the military usually get?
 

Velocipede

New Member
Flying 150 hours a month doesn't make you a better pilot. It makes you a TIRED pilot. And tired pilots tend to make mistakes. You never wondered why the accident rate in bush flying is so high?
 
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