The old warhorse

Flying 150 hours a month doesn't make you a better pilot. It makes you a TIRED pilot. And tired pilots tend to make mistakes. You never wondered why the accident rate in bush flying is so high?

The accident rate is from the conditions, and piss poor judgment (the main killer up here seems to be "should I push it or go back to the barn"), piss poor judgment in part comes from fatigue, I'll buy that. But seriously? 550hrs per year is pretty normal? Really? Do you mean to say that most guys aren't even hitting their reserves?
 
What the heck do you mean you will buy that? It is a fact. Nothing to buy here.



What are you talking about guys hitting their reserves? Do you mean their minimum guarantees?

I mean that I agree, damn, does literally everything have to be discussed ad nauseum on here.

Minimum guarantees, yep, are they hitting their mins?
 
Some months you might hit your mins, some months you might not. It all depends. Thankfully ALPA negotiated early on, minimum monthly guarantees that we are paid.


Not everyone wants to fly 800+ hours a year.
 
Earlier in the year, I nearly maxed out a few months. 95-ish logged hours for a few months running. Tack on the kind of schedules and frequent reduced rest overnights I often got, and it wore me down in a hurry. I spent most of my off-duty time trying to rest up for my next sequence.

Fatigue is a real threat and nothing to joke with. Don't let the invincibility of youth make you think it "can't happen to you".

Odds are it will someday.
 
Some months you might hit your mins, some months you might not. It all depends. Thankfully ALPA negotiated early on, minimum monthly guarantees that we are paid.


Not everyone wants to fly 800+ hours a year.


Believe me, its not really like I want to, its a lot of work.

As for hitting your guarantee, not that I'd want to, I was just curious if guys were hitting their reserve guarantee at all, seems strange to me that the company wouldn't take you right to mins, then cut you off, ya know, get the best bang for their buck.

As for fatigue, believe me, I feel it, I have little or no social life right now trying to balance flying full time and going to school full time. No real time for "hooping it up."

Man, my ignorance on this 121 stuff is embarrassing, I feel like Sarah Palin, this state does that to you I think. ;) I gotta get out of here :panic::panic::panic:
 
You betcha!

Funny thing is, you can pretty much only see Russia from Tin City at FL250 on a rediculously clear day. Or Big Diomede. That's all.
 
Minimum guarantees, yep, are they hitting their mins?

You have to remember that we don't have to actually fly over guarantee to get paid over guarantee. Lots of soft time is available. For example, I flew only 63 hours of block last month, but I got paid for 102 hours. When I was flying stand-ups, a typical month was 35-50 hours of block while getting paid the min guarantee of 70 hours.
 
Credit vs. Block

I mean that I agree, damn, does literally everything have to be discussed ad nauseum on here.

Minimum guarantees, yep, are they hitting their mins?

Unless someone is interested in building time towards some quantity, such as 500 in type, or 1000 jet PIC, and other things like that, the idea is to fly a bit less and credit more.

In other words, say there is a trip where you can get 25 hours of pay and fly 15 hours, and have three 20 hour layovers.

There is also a trip available where you get 25 hours of pay, and you fly 25 hours. The layovers are only about 12-14 hours each.

One would get away with an easier work week with the first trip. Unless there is a need to get ten more hours in the logbook, most would pick the trip that pays the same for less work.

Another example, I did four day trip that finished tonight and I flew 16 hours but credited 23. For the month of November the schedule computer shows that I will credit 90 hours (so that's where I'm above guarantee) but only block about 75 in the airplane.

Does this make sense?
 
Re: Credit vs. Block

Unless someone is interested in building time towards some quantity, such as 500 in type, or 1000 jet PIC, and other things like that, the idea is to fly a bit less and credit more.

In other words, say there is a trip where you can get 25 hours of pay and fly 15 hours, and have three 20 hour layovers.

There is also a trip available where you get 25 hours of pay, and you fly 25 hours. The layovers are only about 12-14 hours each.

One would get away with an easier work week with the first trip. Unless there is a need to get ten more hours in the logbook, most would pick the trip that pays the same for less work.

Another example, I did four day trip that finished tonight and I flew 16 hours but credited 23. For the month of November the schedule computer shows that I will credit 90 hours (so that's where I'm above guarantee) but only block about 75 in the airplane.

Does this make sense?

So you're essentially looking at a per diem system for pay in addition to the minimum.
 
So you're essentially looking at a per diem system for pay in addition to the minimum.

Here is what a paycheck from a most airlines would look like:

1) Minimum monthly guarantee (MMG): whatever the monthly minimum is at that airline for a lineholder. Somewhere between 68-75 hours at most companies.

2) In addition to MMG, any credit hours a pilot attained beyond that. If they credited 90 hours in the month then that is added in.

3) Per diem:
Taxed for day trips
Un-taxed for trips with overnights away from base
Anywhere from $1.30 to $4 per hour depending on the airline and where the flying is done.


Add those three things together and that is the total pay for the month.

Per diem is not generally considered part of the yearly income, though.
 
Here is what a paycheck from a most airlines would look like:

1) Minimum monthly guarantee (MMG): whatever the monthly minimum is at that airline for a lineholder. Somewhere between 68-75 hours at most companies.

2) In addition to MMG, any credit hours a pilot attained beyond that. If they credited 90 hours in the month then that is added in.

3) Per diem:
Taxed for day trips
Un-taxed for trips with overnights away from base
Anywhere from $1.30 to $4 per hour depending on the airline and where the flying is done.


Add those three things together and that is the total pay for the month.

Per diem is not generally considered part of the yearly income, though.


So what does the annual income of a regional FO really look like. Because $22,000 looks gawd awful whereas $22,000 + Credit Hours + Perdiem might be more like $30,000 or so? Or am I oversimplifying this.
 
So what does the annual income of a regional FO really look like. Because $22,000 looks gawd awful whereas $22,000 + Credit Hours + Perdiem might be more like $30,000 or so? Or am I oversimplifying this.

Sounds like you want to know based on first year pay.


Let's use $23 per hour, and a MMG of 75 hours. Per diem is $1.60 per hour.

Pilot #1

Let's assume this pilot does reserve all year, and since the company is staffed reasonably well, this reserve pilot averages 50-60 hours of flying per month. On reserve this pilot sometimes gets daytrips and sometimes gets four-days. Time away from base averages 200 hours per month. Yes, day trips are taxed but for the purpose of making this simple let's just say all per diem is not taxed.

$23 x (75) = $1,725
$1.60 x (200) = $320

If this pilot did that for twelve months they would earn:
$20,700 before taxes taken out
$3,840 in per diem




Pilot #2

Pilot number two is a bit more senior than pilot number one is, so this pilot is a lineholder all year. He lives in base and so, when he gets a few days off, he almost always picks up a day trip to fly. He wants some extra money and does this every month, all year. Let's see how much extra money this earns him over the course of the year. We'll say he credits 95 hours of pay each month. Since his base schedule is all four-day trips, they are about 85 hours time away from base each, plus the per diem he gets on anything he picks up. We'll say he usually is away from base 360 hours per month.

$23 x (95) = $2,185
$1.60 x (360) = $576

If this pilot did that for twelve months they would earn:
$26,220 before taxes taken out
$6,912 in per diem


So you see, the pay is far from acceptable as it is impossible to earn much more than the second pilot in these two examples is.

Also consider that although per diem increases the more one is away from base, the amount of food that needs to be purchased does too. You can bring a cooler around for the whole trip but you still occasionally need to buy something.
 
Re: Wait a minute...

Wow, I only know a couple people who fly less than 1000 hrs per year. I know a couple of AK Air pilots who fly about 700, and a NAC guy who's so senior that he only flies about 300 per year, and a medevac guy or two, but really? Hell, 1000hrs per year isn't that much compared to my last job that was at 1400hrs per year. Seriously? Wow, I stand corrected. So most of you guys don't even hit your reserve huh? Cool!
It's alot of time when you're wearing chicken plate, it's 130 degrees out, no air conditioning, and someone is trying to kill you while you fly just off the deck.
I've flown both sides- military, 135, and 121. The times can not be compared. Flying 8 hours a day 135 and especially 121 was a piece of cake. Press a button, "DING DONG". "Yes, may I please have a Diet Coke when you get a chance. Lots of ice. Thanks."
Military side, it went like this, "Hey chief, will you pass up another frozen liter of water so I can shove it under my chicken plate?" 15 minutes later it would be melted so I could drink it. 30 minutes later it was too warm to drink so I poured it down my flight suit. An 8 hour mission in the military kicked my butt by the end of my career and I had to take an 800mg Motrin before each one. I remember coming off one 9 hour mission after flying 5 days straight, barely able to get out of the aircraft, and being so happy that I had the next day off. The 21 year old WO1 copilot I was flying with came back from turning in our flight bag all giddy because we had just been put on the board for a mission the next day. I almost cried I was so tired.
But it does not make a difference with the FO in question. I don't care if he had 25,000 hours of combat heavy jet time. He's the FO. Captain asks you to do something by the book, you do it.
 
Re: Wait a minute...

It's alot of time when you're wearing chicken plate, it's 130 degrees out, no air conditioning, and someone is trying to kill you while you fly just off the deck.
I've flown both sides- military, 135, and 121. The times can not be compared. Flying 8 hours a day 135 and especially 121 was a piece of cake. Press a button, "DING DONG". "Yes, may I please have a Diet Coke when you get a chance. Lots of ice. Thanks."
Military side, it went like this, "Hey chief, will you pass up another frozen liter of water so I can shove it under my chicken plate?" 15 minutes later it would be melted so I could drink it. 30 minutes later it was too warm to drink so I poured it down my flight suit. An 8 hour mission in the military kicked my butt by the end of my career and I had to take an 800mg Motrin before each one. I remember coming off one 9 hour mission after flying 5 days straight, barely able to get out of the aircraft, and being so happy that I had the next day off. The 21 year old WO1 copilot I was flying with came back from turning in our flight bag all giddy because we had just been put on the board for a mission the next day. I almost cried I was so tired.
But it does not make a difference with the FO in question. I don't care if he had 25,000 hours of combat heavy jet time. He's the FO. Captain asks you to do something by the book, you do it.

Well, before I bow in greatness (because that sounds terrible, and thus makes you a badass) my only defensible position that I may rebut is that I've only flown on autopilot about 100hrs or so. Other than that. You sir are correct.
 
Re: Wait a minute...

Well, before I bow in greatness (because that sounds terrible, and thus makes you a badass) my only defensible position that I may rebut is that I've only flown on autopilot about 100hrs or so. Other than that. You sir are correct.
Ha. Ha.
Flying hours is only part of the equation in experience. It's what you have done and learned with the hours that matters. I've flown with 10,000 hour FOs who were tools like the FO mentioned in the original post. I've flown with 250 hour FOs who I thought I would have to baby sit, but were outstanding (although the FO with the worst attitude I ever encountered was one of these). I will say that I don't think I ever flew with a former night fright pilot who did not know what they were doing.
 
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