The mentality of a "Fast-Track" program and low time commercial airline pilots...

Would people still pay 50k for ATP if they didn't have hiring mininums agreements?

Thats the real question that has to be asked. Would people still be willing to pay nearly 20K more than they would at an FBO, just for all their ratings in 90 days if the mins were not attached?
 
Maximillian_Jenius said:
Cool, I just have noticed that you post from a somewhat different persepctive now vs. when you were just a regular member. Not at all knocking your post as a member.

Just digging your new perspective in posting as a moderator!
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Thanks :) I'm still kind of 'getting settled' in the whole Mod thing. Trying not to anger anyone too much :D
 
MikeOH58 said:
Would people still pay 50k for ATP if they didn't have hiring mininums agreements?

Thats the real question that has to be asked. Would people still be willing to pay nearly 20K more than they would at an FBO, just for all their ratings in 90 days if the mins were not attached?
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Good question, and one with an obvious answer, IMO.
 
Holding Short said:
I'm lost. Can someone please recap ?

HS
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I'm not really following this too well either.

Mark is saying (from what I get) that the FastTrack "pilot mills" are fostering a get there quickly at all costs mentality. And because of this the profession is being dragged down.

The thing is, you are talking about something you don't really know much about. You never went through a pilot factory. Those of us that did (and I was split about 20-80) are the ones that should be answering this. Not the guy that sees this low time wonders complaining about how they have to CFI another 100 hours to get hired and then equates it to the finish your ratings quick thing because "seniority is everything".

Mark, you know I agree with you on most stuff and I've 100% got your back on the ALPA stuff, but you are coming off as a little bit preachy here....


I hate to use a bait and switch here, but I am way to tired to write coherently what I am trying to say. I'm hoping somebody will do what they usually do and say exactly what I am trying to say but 100X better.
 
kellwolf said:
Good question, and one with an obvious answer, IMO.
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I agree....And that says a lot. But then again there will be tons of people who swear by ATP, and would claim they would still pay the price with or without hiring agreements.
 
BobDDuck said:
Those hiring agreements didn't exist more then 2 years ago. Plenty of people went to ATP anyways.
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Eh, not so fast. When I was looking at Skymates (two years ago), I was thinking about ATP BECAUSE they had hiring agreements. The only reason I didn't go was a) Skymates was a LOT cheaper and b) they didn't do the CSEL outside of the career program, so I would have been paying for a lot of time I didn't need.

Plus, you have to agree, ATP was a different school two years ago....
 
Seggy said:
If you look above I am not 'berating' anyone. Guys should look for the next job, that better one, the one that will enhance their career and help them fulfill their dream. If a legacy calls me tommorow, I am going, even with no Turbine PIC.

If a legacy calls tommorow and their pilots are on strike, am I going, no. Would others who are willing to 'get their the quickest'? That is the question. That attitude is fostered in these fast track programs. How do we know where that attitude will lead to?

I would say 99.999999% of the guys on here would be unified and do the thing I would do not go to that major that was on strike. But how many out there not on Jetcareers would go and cross that line?
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I think you are making a big stretch to make that connection. Scabs will be scabs no matter their training background. However, if we work together and get good contracts at the regional level there won't be a need to jump to the majors unless one really wants that kind of flying. Someone needs to explain to me why a regional cannot be a career or at least a long term job "place". Not everyone is driven by money, but you do need a good pay scale to survive on.
 
No question it was a different place. It was the bomb-diggity-yo because I was instructing there still:)

Ok, so maybe not 2 years, but when I went through there wasn't anything. Midway through my time instructing they announced the ExpressJet thing and that was a huge deal. But up until then they had a few written letters but they were all for about the same mins as you could get hired off the street. Also there was no RJ program carrot that they dangled.
 
I think the "mills" are doing a darn good job at advertising. They say a lot of things. Some are truths, some are half-truths. Amber showed that you can get your PPL, get this FASTER than ATP. ATP advertised their course as 60 days, she took 30. The "mills" may be faster or may not be faster than a dedicated student flying a an FBO/ school FULL TIME.

Do the "mills" produce a better pilot, absolutely NOT. A specific instructor may teach better than others for a student, but it comes down to the students willingness to learn. If someone was never meant to fly, they will never get far FBO or "mill". If someone was born with a yoke in their hands that will show in both settings.

I do think the "mills" do have a lot of half-truths in their advertising. They need to entice their customers to spend their money at their location. Since the "mills" cater to the "get it done quick" crowd, willing to travel, they will advertise speed in which you CAN get you ratings done. They also compete with all the other "mills in the country.

The FBO's are an option for the "get it done quick" crowd, but that is not who they cater to, and therefore do not advertise speed. The advertisements at the place that I am at is a: "hey, we are here close to ya if you want to learn". We don't really compete wit anyone.

Sure our place could get someone their PPL in a month and a half, if that was their full time job, but admit it, it is not most peoples full time job to be a student pilot.
 
Originally Posted by Seggy
Merit, myself and others on here are looking at 40+ year airline careers. It is easy in life to wave the white flag and surrender. ALPA is there for insurance for our careers. It is also important that we use and use ALPA for other things and issues that will be coming up for our careers.

ALPA was started to address airline safety. Why not use ALPA to address CFI issues? Why not use ALPA to address student pilots? We can use ALPA as airline pilots to use it in ways we see fit.

We had BETTER start advocating what is right. Who decides what is right? We do as a pilot group.

If we get the pilots on the same page, have everyone understand it is not right to undercut everyone else and get jobs, like GoJets or scabs, then we take wind out of managements sails. Then they have nothing to go on.

We as pilots need to be unified. FEDEX is probably the most unified Pilot group out there. Look what they were able to negotiate in their last contract. SWA even though not ALPA is unified, look what they have going for them.

If pilots are unified then management has nothing. If pilots think it is just cool to fly then we are screwed.

I'm not out of my element. I am learning a new element. Yes, I might be wrong on some things, but I do have an open mind! I take criticism well (the football time in me), and am open to other ideas.

We should all stand up and fight for what we believe in. I believe pilots should be unified. I'll stand up and fight for that.
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I think if you would have started your thread wih this, instead of semi-attacking pilot mills you would have done a lot better. I think what your trying to say, is we need to educate the pilots at these mills about sticking together. Whether your a CFI/91Corp/135/121/etc, we are all pilots and we need to stay on the same team. Lorenzo destroyed my Dad's CO plans, and my familily back in '83, so I know these things first hand. (No he didn't scab, he walked the picket line for a while, then walked away from his dream job)
 
Another thing FBOs have over the factories is that you can just get ONE rating at an advanced pace if you want, and it doesn't have to be a ME one, either. Yeah, I did a LOT of ME ratings at Skymates, but I also did a lot of quick CSEL and IR as well. Those mainly went to people that either just wanted it done for personal reasons or (in the case of the CSEL) already had a job lined up but needed a Comm rating.
 
BobDDuck said:
I'm not really following this too well either.

Mark is saying (from what I get) that the FastTrack "pilot mills" are fostering a get there quickly at all costs mentality. And because of this the profession is being dragged down.
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No way am I saying that ATP is dragging down the profession. Like I said ATP has a good program. There are good guys and gals that go there.

They do foster a get their quickly attitude (not saying it is dragging it down). But at what cost? We have to make sure everyone takes a step back and smell the roses. Be careful of having a gung-ho get there quickly attitude. Enjoy the ride.

Hope that clears it up. If I sound preachy, I apologize. Don't mean to sound that way. I've just been a little passionate of a few things lately. One bone I have to pick with ALPA is that they do not do anything really to educate those making the way up the ranks. It would be a lot easier down the road if they did.
 
Dugie8 said:
I think you are making a big stretch to make that connection. Scabs will be scabs no matter their training background. However, if we work together and get good contracts at the regional level there won't be a need to jump to the majors unless one really wants that kind of flying. Someone needs to explain to me why a regional cannot be a career or at least a long term job "place". Not everyone is driven by money, but you do need a good pay scale to survive on.
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A regional really can't be seen as a career. They don't own the flying. They are outsourced much like a janitorial company might be outsourced to clean a building. It can change year after year. The regionals that were around 15-25 years ago that had a strong market share aren't around today.

PositionAndHold said:
I think if you would have started your thread wih this, instead of semi-attacking pilot mills you would have done a lot better. I think what your trying to say, is we need to educate the pilots at these mills about sticking together. Whether your a CFI/91Corp/135/121/etc, we are all pilots and we need to stay on the same team. Lorenzo destroyed my Dad's CO plans, and my familily back in '83, so I know these things first hand. (No he didn't scab, he walked the picket line for a while, then walked away from his dream job)
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I probably should have started it another way. I might have been a tad to over the top. Still they go after those starry eyed pilots with millions in advertising budgets, nothing wrong with going after them. :)

Going further to what you said. We have been doing meet and greets with the Colgan ALPA Organizing Drive. Basically, any pilot who stops by gets a free meal. We had a American Airlines Captain stop by a few weeks ago.

The AA Pilots left ALPA to start their own in house union years ago. This Captain was heavily involved in the American Pilot Union. He got his lunch and sat down as he was commuting home. We all agreed that the important thing is to get everyone on the same page. Doesn't matter what the past has been, but we have to look at the future. He said pilots have to talk, work together, no matter if they fly a 172 Instructing, a Corporate Challenger/Lear, or a 747 at United, or a 777 at American.

We have to have unity.
 
Seggy said:
A regional really can't be seen as a career. They don't own the flying. They are outsourced much like a janitorial company might be outsourced to clean a building. It can change year after year. The regionals that were around 15-25 years ago that had a strong market share aren't around today.



.
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Well, we really can't have it both ways. If a paticular job is going to type casted as a stepping stone, we really don't have a leg to stand on about improving pay and QOL, all the whipsawing that is done should be expected and not bitched about.

An equal problem here is the way we as pilots look at certain flying jobs. Flying a B99 for freight is no different than flying a 737 around, one generates more revenue per flight for sure but one is definately not "better" than the other in terms of social standings.
 
All this talk about unions. Hell, I think CFIs should form the PFIA - Professional Flight Instructors Association. Talk about another group of talented folks that get mistreated.
 
Dugie8 said:
Well, we really can't have it both ways. If a paticular job is going to type casted as a stepping stone, we really don't have a leg to stand on about improving pay and QOL, all the whipsawing that is done should be expected and not bitched about.

An equal problem here is the way we as pilots look at certain flying jobs. Flying a B99 for freight is no different than flying a 737 around, one generates more revenue per flight for sure but one is definately not "better" than the other in terms of social standings.
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No we can have it both ways. Have standard pay rates for equipment. First year FOs on a Beech 1900 will not make less than 30,000. No first year FO on a RJ will make less than 40,000. No captain on an RJ will make less than 75,000. Something like that. The thing is now is the time to try to get that in place. It will be that way for a few years I think. It is critical we work on something towards that.

I agree pilots have to look at certain flying jobs as equal. Doesn't matter if you fly the Chieftain at AMF to the 777 at United. We are all important to the industry. We work our way up, but we are all important in the big picture.
 
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