The mentality of a "Fast-Track" program and low time commercial airline pilots...

[Michael95U]

My concern with the low-time, fast track pilots is the mentality they have regarding flying, studying, and personal improvement. The fast track programs are essentially shortcuts from the other more "traditional" ways of training. Are some of these pilots just looking for the quickest and perceived to be easiest route? Yes. If they are, will they train just to meet the PTS standards or exceed them? I'm sure some will just do the minimum necessary. When they get on the line, will they feel that ground school and initial training is enough and they won't crack another book until checkride time? Will they work to keep sharp on memory items? My fear is we will have more pilots who just want to take the shortcut and not understand that safe flying is a continual process of learning. This is the real danger to our profession and those who rely on it.

Not all accelerated programs are the same. I would say the high volume schools have a tendency to push people through with the minimum ground school time. I built my program on the principal that ground school is the most important and my CFI's spend a lot of time teaching on the ground. It also helps having CFI's that aren't interested in moving on to the regionals, so the instruction is consistently of very high quality.

Michael

 

[NJA_Capt]

How else are we going to do it? Where are you going to find your 1000TT 100ME pilots to fill all the jobs Segs? This is NOT a pay issue. This is a SUPPLY and DEMAND issue. The bar is not being lowered. Times are being lowered to find more pilots.

1000TT???? Sorry. 1000 is still extremely low time. 2000-3000 would be preferred.

Your post comes across as verbatim rhetoric that the schools have been pumping into everyone, and it contradicts itself.

Supply and demand vs.shortage??

If there is a shortage, prices go up, not down.

When gasoline supplies go down, do car makers put smaller tanks in cars?
When apple crops are below normal do growers start selling smaller apples?

If there was a shortage of pilots salaries would be going up. How else can I prove there is NOT a shortage? Because our minimums are still 2500TT (as are our competitors) and we are not having a problem getting apps with 5000+ hours. By the way, when we raised our pay last year, more people began applying (First yr FO $47k). "Old guys" expect to get argued with about minimums, what I find very interesting is when guys hired with very low times say that "times are too low" people argue with them too.

So how are you to do it? Simple, you invest your time in building your credentials within the industry. Not by opening your wallet and buying a ticket to the front of the line.

 

[Chris_Ford]

If there was a shortage of pilots salaries would be going up.

By the way, when we raised our pay last year,

Interesting

 

[NJA_Capt]

Here is some more to think about. (ref shortage)

There were 59,195 more ATPs in 2006 than in 1985.
There were 32,403 more CFIs in 2006 than in 1985.
There were 50,774 more Instrument rated pilots in 2006 than in 1985.
There were 61,786 less student pilots in 2006 than in 1985.

http://www.gama.aero/dloads/2006GAMAStatisticalDatabook.pdf

Interesting

Although the quotes you selected look contradictory, look at it overall.
There wasn't a shortage of pilots, just a shortage of pilots willing to work for $27K. When the pay was raised, there were suddenly plenty of 2500+ pilots.

 

[meritflyer]

Im gunna make a few points and hopefully not stir up controversy.

1. There is a PILOT SHORTAGE
If you do not think there is you are either a pessimist or in denial. The pilot shortage is NOT because of pay. The pilot shortages have been predicted far before 9-11 when pay was great. I believe the pilot shortage is due to how expensive it is to start flight training, massive airline expansion, and baby boomer retirements

2. There is nothing wrong with having a FAST-TRACK mentality.
There is a pilot shortage. For the sake of the industry pilots need to be developed FAST and efficiently. How else are we going to do it? Where are you going to find your 1000TT 100ME pilots to fill all the jobs Segs? This is NOT a pay issue. This is a SUPPLY and DEMAND issue. The bar is not being lowered. Times are being lowered to find more pilots.

3. There is nothing wrong with low-time pilots. There is nothing wrong with high time pilots. It all comes down to the individual. Each of us is different with different minds. Whatever you want to do with your career, do what you feel is best. If you want to instruct more, do it. If you feel you are ready to take the next step, do it.

Lastly, Segs you keep saying at 500 hrs you weren't ready for the 1900. Please let the younger and low-time pilots know WHY you weren't ready. Also, tell us what you would have gained instructing at your pre-1900 job that would have better prepared you. Thanks!

Whatever makes you sleep better at night. :banghead:

With love,

meritflyer

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

Would people still pay 50k for ATP if they didn't have hiring mininums agreements?

Thats the real question that has to be asked. Would people still be willing to pay nearly 20K more than they would at an FBO, just for all their ratings in 90 days if the mins were not attached?

The hiring agreements are worthless now. At best, they knock off 100-200 TT. Not that big of a deal.

They do foster a get their quickly attitude (not saying it is dragging it down). But at what cost? We have to make sure everyone takes a step back and smell the roses. Be careful of having a gung-ho get there quickly attitude. Enjoy the ride.

Of course they foster a get there quick attitude! That is what they advertise! I still don't see the argument that this is inherently a bad thing. The airlines obviously want this, people that go there obviously want this, and airplanes haven't been falling out of the sky since they started up business 20 years ago, or whenever they started.

Why should ATP care about the "cost" of their training program? They are providing a service both PILOTS and AIRLINES want. If not, they would be out of business.

Fast track doesn't always = bad. Someone can get 2000TT flying pipeline patrol in VFR everyday, but I don't think many skills from that job, sans airspace and communication, necessarily translate over to flying a Beech 1900. As far as I know, ATP uses real DESIGNATED EXAMINERS for their checkrides, and I know for a fact they do at the GKY location. They are meeting FAA requirements for their ratings, they fly multi-engine IFR, and are current in both single and multi engine flying, as well as VFR and IFR.

 

[surreal1221]

Lots of preaching going on these days.

Not too sure what the hell spurred it all - who knows.

 

[FlyChicaga]

Lots of preaching going on these days.

Not too sure what the hell spurred it all - who knows.

Nice weather. Drinking on the patio.

 

[ComplexHiAv8r]

Nice weather. Drinking on the patio.

Thought you were going to do some studying????

 

[FlyChicaga]

I didn't say I was drinking. Just saying, all these people posting philosophical threads. Must be the bottle. Besides, it's only noon! Although it is five o'clock somewhere... Like Iceland!

 

[C150J]

I didn't say I was drinking now! It's only noon! Although it is five o'clock somewhere... Like Iceland!

What're ya studying?

 

[FlyChicaga]

Just hittin' the books. Been out of the cockpit for a while.

 

[Trip7]

1000TT???? Sorry. 1000 is still extremely low time. 2000-3000 would be preferred.

Your post comes across as verbatim rhetoric that the schools have been pumping into everyone, and it contradicts itself.

Supply and demand vs.shortage??

If there is a shortage, prices go up, not down.

When gasoline supplies go down, do car makers put smaller tanks in cars?
When apple crops are below normal do growers start selling smaller apples?

If there was a shortage of pilots salaries would be going up. How else can I prove there is NOT a shortage? Because our minimums are still 2500TT (as are our competitors) and we are not having a problem getting apps with 5000+ hours. By the way, when we raised our pay last year, more people began applying (First yr FO $47k). "Old guys" expect to get argued with about minimums, what I find very interesting is when guys hired with very low times say that "times are too low" people argue with them too.

So how are you to do it? Simple, you invest your time in building your credentials within the industry. Not by opening your wallet and buying a ticket to the front of the line.

Whatever makes you sleep better at night. :banghead:

With love,

meritflyer

Man you people are in Denial. Wake up and smell the coffee. NJA capt, the industry OVERALL has a shortage. Tell the guys in China or India there's not a shortage. The top paying companies such as UPS, FEDEX, and high paying corporate gigs like your company wouldn't have a shortage. Its the lower end legacies and majors that the shortage will be hitting soon. The regionals have a full blown shortage. If they all raised pay right now there STILL would be a shortage. The cost to train is still high, and if you go through the military you are there 8-10 years. Add that most people aren't interested in flying anyway. To make it in this industry you MUST LOVE TO FLY. So I don't understand the Pay and QOL as a reason that most are not starting to train. It may be that way for some, but not most. I love flying, I would have entered this field no matter what anyone told me, such as the Delta Captain telling my dad to spend the flying money on a convience store rather than flight training. While most would like to remain pessimistic and see the dark side of everything, I remain optimistic and look at the bright side as it will provide me more happiness throughout my career, and yes merit, makes me sleep better at night

 

[Captain_Bob]

My concern with the low-time, fast track pilots is the mentality they have regarding flying, studying, and personal improvement. The fast track programs are essentially shortcuts from the other more "traditional" ways of training. Are some of these pilots just looking for the quickest and perceived to be easiest route? Yes. If they are, will they train just to meet the PTS standards or exceed them? I'm sure some will just do the minimum necessary. When they get on the line, will they feel that ground school and initial training is enough and they won't crack another book until checkride time? Will they work to keep sharp on memory items? My fear is we will have more pilots who just want to take the shortcut and not understand that safe flying is a continual process of learning. This is the real danger to our profession and those who rely on it.

Beers...

Your viewpoint is a common mis-conception. A program like ATP is not a "shortcut" when it comes to the learning process... don't confuse "quick" with "easy". In fact... it helps solidify the importance of knowledge and retention... since it is an immersion type program.

OK... this quote comes from the "Wayback Machine" just to kind of illustrate what I'm talking about...

We always hear that TIME = EXPERIENCE... I firmly believe that! Breaking it down... 90 days versus 6 months to 2 years at an FBO. What is the real difference if the flight time is equal?

90 days = Approx 12-13 weeks. Let's give you two days off one week and one day off the next, and continue. Now we are down to approx. 52 days. Of which... those days are soley dedicated to flying, sim'ing, ground, waiting for weather, etc... Let's call it 8 hours each day... sometimes more sometimes less. That's 416 hours of experience.

Now let's take the 6 month to 2 year traditional FBO route. It sounds like they will have much more experience because it took them longer. But did they fly every day? More likely (if it was like my old FBO) they worked, had the other distractions, flew 6 hours a week, with 1 hour of ground/pre-post flight, were told to study XYZ before the next flight in 2 days, and went home and studied XYZ at 11:00pm the night before their next flight. If we go with this then in the 6 months, they have approx 208 hours of "experience" in 6 months. That's half what ATP provides. Let's say it takes them a year and we double that number... then it's same as the "Time" of experience as ATP... Then ask how much of that time was Multi, complex, advanced Nav systems, or turbine... and compare it again... then ask them to the answer to a flying question they learned 1 year ago...

Of course if they are a good instructor... their answer should always be... "That's a great question... let's look that up together!"

Bob

 

[Stone Cold]

777, I can't wait for a couple of years down the road, when the SJS has finally wore off, and you're slugging it out to try to pay your bills on regional FO pay flying transcontinental and international flights. I want to see your perspective then...right now, if there's a airline CEO reading these boards, they have to be the happiest person on the face of the earth reading some of the stuff you're typing!!!

 

[kellwolf]

If they all raised pay right now there STILL would be a shortage.

Uh, no. And I'll use one of your points to illustrate...

The cost to train is still high,

Ah ha! Now, if the regionals paid more and you go more for your investment, it would be different. I'm no economics guru, but I'm betting that if pay went up at regionals, you'd see a lot LESS people saying "It's not worth it to spend $60K for a $20K a year job." I know if I were training today, I'd have to SERIOUSLY think about it. As it is, my loan payments from 2005 are about HALF what guys today are paying. IMO, that is a major reason regionals are finding it hard to hire QUALIFIED applicants. If you ever decide to instruct instead of get on with a regional ASAP, you'll see a LOT of people that would love to fly for the airlines, but they can't justify the decrease in pay from what they're doing now.

To make it in this industry you MUST LOVE TO FLY. So I don't understand the Pay and QOL as a reason that most are not starting to train. It may be that way for some, but not most.

So because I love to fly, I should be HAPPY how little I get paid? BS, and this reasoning is the main contributing factor to why pay is so sluggish at going up. Wasn't it Ornstein that said as long as he has applications on his desk, he's paying his pilots too much?

I remain optimistic and look at the bright side as it will provide me more happiness throughout my career, and yes merit, makes me sleep better at night

A healthy dose of optimism is good, but you gotta throw in some realism now and then. Would you still be willing to fly in 5 years after inflation has gone up, wages haven't kept up, you're still paying on those loans, and you're behind on rent and starving? But, hey. You love to fly, right?

 

[meritflyer]

Your viewpoint is a common mis-conception. A program like ATP is not a "shortcut" when it comes to the learning process... don't confuse "quick" with "easy".

Eh, dont be so sure about that.

I have experience at both the large scale academy with formal groundschools and gay uniforms, FBOs, and ATP.

By far, ATP was the easiest. My checkrides (other than the initial) were a joke. The examiners were not in-house but had "an understanding with Jim" as one who does checkrides at KVGT put it to me.

The II ride was a joke. In the sim and in the plane. The add-on was a bigger joke.

The education at the large scale schools that have ground school 5 days a week from 6 AM - 10 AM, flying in the afternoon, stage checks, and formal written exams in order to progress were much more challenging than ATP. I walked in to ATP and walked out 10 days later a CFIIME.

The "accelerated" programs teach you only what you need to know to pass the checkride. Thats exactly how ATP worked. I studied the gouge and only the gouge once I found out who my inspector was.

Take it from a guy Bob who's been to both. I started and completed FBO, academy, and "accelerated" programs. They're not all created equal.

 

[meritflyer]

Man you people are in Denial. Wake up and smell the coffee.

I love it. A guy with a commercial certificate, no instructing experience, no 121 experience, no 135 experience, no fractional experience, no corporate experience, minimal flight experience, most likely minimal business experience, and so forth, telling everyone to wake up and stop being in denial.

You're going to be very popular both on this site and in the world of professional flying.

Welcome aboard!

 

[Champcar]

But its ok for Student pilots to preach Unions, FBO's, and not wanting to fly a jet at 300 hours.

 

[Captain_Bob]

My checkrides (other than the initial) were a joke... The II ride was a joke. In the sim and in the plane. The add-on was a bigger joke.

Quite frankly Merit... that's the way it should be. The intial is always the hardest... and add-on's by there very nature should be easy. That should have been true weather you did it at ATP or your local FBO.

I started and completed FBO, academy, and "accelerated" programs. They're not all created equal.

Agreed.