The mentality of a "Fast-Track" program and low time commercial airline pilots...

Oh, and there is no pilot shortage. There is a shortage of people willing to work for substandard QOL and pay (again, my war drum here, WHO voted those contracts in?). When the majors start hiring guys with 1000 TT and 100 ME then there is a pilot shortage. When my pay goes up without fighting tooth and nail during negotiations, there is a pilot shortage. What we have here are people realizing that being an FO for 5+ years on a CRJ/ERJ/Insert Turboprop, and trying to live or commute to cities where even 4th year FO is below the poverty level, just isn't worth it.

This is not a pilot shortage, this is a good thing for us all. HOWEVER, if we as a pilot group keep up the fraternity mentallity of hazing (I did it, so should you) and this stepping stone mentallity about perfectly good long term jobs, it ain't gonna get any better. Beating people over the head with holier than thou attitudes about what the proper track to flying professionally is, ain't gonna do it either.

Nurture and support, or step on their necks, ya'lls choice.
 
Fly,

Good points. Realistically though 300 hours isn't enough to have the experience to fly those airplanes from a civilian background. The employers are starting to see that they do need to pay people more. Look at the bonus program at RAH as an example of this. My company raised second year FO rates, one of the reason was high attrition. We haven't seen a raise in six years!


Dugie, my company a regional used to see 70 applications every two days or so. They are now seeing 4 to 6 applications every day. Eventually that shortage will lead up to the majors. Guys are even leaving the majors pursuing flying overseas. There have been guys leaving a legacy going to NetJets.

I agree with the nurturing and support. If you think I am 'beating people over the head with holier than thou attitudes about what the proper track to flying professionally is, ain't gonna do it either' you are dead wrong.

Why don't you ask a few people on here how I supported and helped them out?
 
Seggy said:
Fly,

Good points. Realistically though 300 hours isn't enough to have the experience to fly those airplanes from a civilian background. The employers are starting to see that they do need to pay people more. Look at the bonus program at RAH as an example of this. My company raised second year FO rates, one of the reason was high attrition. We haven't seen a raise in six years!


Dugie, my company a regional used to see 70 applications every two days or so. They are now seeing 4 to 6 applications every day. Eventually that shortage will lead up to the majors. Guys are even leaving the majors pursuing flying overseas. There have been guys leaving a legacy going to NetJets.

I agree with the nurturing and support. If you think I am 'beating people over the head with holier than thou attitudes about what the proper track to flying professionally is, ain't gonna do it either' you are dead wrong.

Why don't you ask a few people on here how I supported and helped them out?
Click to expand...

Because I am not here to help infllate your ego. Helping out JC M&G drinking buddies is not the same as helping out a young kid at an FBO who has the dream of being a jet pilot.

You place the blame for current industry status at the feet of low timers and what you define as "pilot mills". It doesn't belong there, it belongs squarely at the feet of any captain and fo at any regional who voted yes to any contract that is currently in use at this time, and that even goes for express jet.

So what if Colgan has seen a decline in resumes, no one is willing to fly for the pay rates they are offering, and they ain't good for 70 seat airplanes. A fair comparison would be Horizon and that is pushing it a bit.

No one, I repeat, NO ONE here has the ability or the right to say who is and who is not qualified to be in the seat of any airplane, that is all up to the individual and the training enviroment. We can't have it both ways, low pay and high experience in the FO seat, it just doesn't work. So everyone who is high up on the seniority list needs to decide real quick, pay raises for Captains on the next few contracts or larger pay raises for the FOs and try to attract the higher levels of experience to the company. I got solid money on which way they will go/vote.
 
What it really comes down to is, pay me more than $1200 a month, pay me enough to live comfortably, pay me enough to be able to afford the multi-time I'll need, pay me enough not to have to get a second job and I'll work for you as long as I have to. Problem is, there aren't any (or many) CFI, pipeline, banner, agri, etc. jobs that make me want to stay any longer than I'd have to and so, when the better opportunity comes, am I going to make the decision based on what people say from the top who have what they want or am I going to make it based on whats best for me, my family, my life? Sorry, but I'm not going to suffer to please a few people Seggs. I can definately see your point but it has to start with conditions getting better before anyone bashes the low-time pilot who's just trying to make a living. But thats just my 2 cents from the bottom.
 
Dugie8 said:
Because I am not here to help infllate your ego. Helping out JC M&G drinking buddies is not the same as helping out a young kid at an FBO who has the dream of being a jet pilot.

You place the blame for current industry status at the feet of low timers and what you define as "pilot mills". It doesn't belong there, it belongs squarely at the feet of any captain and fo at any regional who voted yes to any contract that is currently in use at this time, and that even goes for express jet.

So what if Colgan has seen a decline in resumes, no one is willing to fly for the pay rates they are offering, and they ain't good for 70 seat airplanes. A fair comparison would be Horizon and that is pushing it a bit.

No one, I repeat, NO ONE here has the ability or the right to say who is and who is not qualified to be in the seat of any airplane, that is all up to the individual and the training enviroment. We can't have it both ways, low pay and high experience in the FO seat, it just doesn't work. So everyone who is high up on the seniority list needs to decide real quick, pay raises for Captains on the next few contracts or larger pay raises for the FOs and try to attract the higher levels of experience to the company. I got solid money on which way they will go/vote.
Click to expand...

You blame the Captains or FOs of the regionals that vote yes to the contract in place? Guess what happens if they vote no...you have a place like GoJets. Freedom I was created to go around the union. MESA pilots had the choice to either say yes to the contract and get industry leading scope clause put in place or vote no and lose there flying. With those starry eyed kids willing to 'get there the quickest', to places like Freedom or GoJets, we don't have a leg to stand on.

Also pay rates at legacies have always been low the first year. Before guys were going to 737 FO they were Beech 99 Captains, not ERJ Captains.

Also, you can ask Airdale how many drinks we have shared together. I met the guy for about 15 minutes a few weeks ago. What is the problem with helping guys/gals out here on JetCareers? I would do the same for a kid at the local FBO, which guess what, I am doing as well (two of them actually).

Edited to add: We had a passenger the other day who wanted to switch careers. After listening to him I sent him of course to this website, wonder if he is reading AND for him to do his training at ATP considering his circumstances. I am not saying they don't put out a good pilot. But we have to be careful of that mentality.
 
Yes I blame them, they voted for the contract that allows low pay and crappy QOL AND then demand high levels of experience in the FO seat. The only realistic way to change that is for captains to forgo a raise in pay to raise the fo payscale(s), that ain't gonna happen, the whole yanking up the ladder thing.

How does voting down a contract equate to GoJets or Freedom? ATI crewmembers voted down 3 contracts in the span of 6 months, they still have the union on property.

I don't have the least bit of a problem helping people, (I will take a play from your ego book here) I do it all the time, and have been helped, but not because of who I know on some message board, because of who I am, the friends and contacts I have made.

I was on my ass 3 months ago and the only people that offered any help or support were my friends, no one here lifted a finger save one or two fellas that dropped me a PM saying they were sorry. What did I get when I asked a headset question about the ERJ for ExpressJet, attitude. Let us not talk about helping people, that street is very narrow and very seldom traveled.
 
Seggy said:
Many people are reaching the destination and realizing it is not what they want.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with this statement. People need to be MUCH MORE INFORMED before they attend an aviation university or ANY flight training program. Those that complain are generally (not always) those that came on board with unrealistic expectations. If you enter the career informed and with an open mind, you can draw your own conclusions. However, if you eat what others feed you (whether it be good OR bad), you're selling yourself short.

Mark - as far as your original post... I will not have enough experience in the 121 world to take a stance until I've been around for a decade or so, but I think the trend is a sign of the times (regardless of whether it's right or wrong). My mom's PhD took her 8 years to complete in the 60s, and that was normal. You can bang one out in 4-5 years now.
 
Seggy said:
You blame the Captains or FOs of the regionals that vote yes to the contract in place? Guess what happens if they vote no...you have a place like GoJets.
Click to expand...

Segg, I appreciate your enthusiasm but you seem to be a little out of your element here. How long have you been a pilot? How long have you been involved in contract negotiations and ALPA? How many union committees have you served on? How many contracts have you personally voted on? Talking to "this 25 year old captain" or reading Flying the Line doesnt count, IMO. Of course the CA's and FO's are responsible for the contracts in place. If the contracts are sub par its because the ALPA negotiated a crappy contract. Pilots have the responsibility to throw out any negotitor that is not serving their cause. I as a paying member of our home owner's association have a duty to bust out any issues that the home owner's board tries to throw at us.

This is a process of showing your worth. Its not going to happen overnight. The paycuts and other concessions have been lost over the life of aviation and flying airliners. Not since 9/11 like some may think.

This mentality that we're going to "take it back" I can appreciate because I am a firm believer pilots are mistreated every day but do you know what you're taking back? Is it QOL, pay, benefits?

I will reiterate, I have a problem with the ALPA because I dont think its its bark is as bad as its bite. This is a common feeling amongst thousands of pilots as well. The ALPA needs to re-group and decide how it's going to determine the worth of the pilots flying the planes.

As I've stated prior, IMO the ALPA needs to hire CEO's, COO's, managers, and other businessman alike to negotiate contracts. Like doctors, pilots may not be the most qualified to go up against some of the largest US company's CEO's.
 
Dugie8 said:
Yes I blame them, they voted for the contract that allows low pay and crappy QOL AND then demand high levels of experience in the FO seat. The only realistic way to change that is for captains to forgo a raise in pay to raise the fo payscale(s), that ain't gonna happen, the whole yanking up the ladder thing.

How does voting down a contract equate to GoJets or Freedom? ATI crewmembers voted down 3 contracts in the span of 6 months, they still have the union on property.

I don't have the least bit of a problem helping people, (I will take a play from your ego book here) I do it all the time, and have been helped, but not because of who I know on some message board, because of who I am, the friends and contacts I have made.

I was on my ass 3 months ago and the only people that offered any help or support were my friends, no one here lifted a finger save one or two fellas that dropped me a PM saying they were sorry. What did I get when I asked a headset question about the ERJ for ExpressJet, attitude. Let us not talk about helping people, that street is very narrow and very seldom traveled.
Click to expand...


The MESA pilots were deadlocked against JO with a crappy contract on the table. JO wanted more flying and began starting up Freedom Airlines. JO was going to use Freedom against Mesa. The Mesa pilots were faced with a choice, sign a crappy contract, or write in industry leading scope clause to prevent the transfer of flying and their jobs to Freedom. They signed that contract. If they didn't they would have lost the flying and their jobs.

Also I like it how you say I should nuture, etc, then when I point out I do you say I have an ego.

I'm a little confused when you said that you....."What did I get when I asked a headset question about the ERJ for ExpressJet, attitude. Let us not talk about helping people, that street is very narrow and very seldom traveled." I did a search and found one thread that you asked about a headseat...

http://forums.jetcareers.com/showthread.php?t=37992

There was one post that I could see iffy, but no one really had an attitude. You even said...


"My butt got furloughed, plus I always wanted to see how sexy flychicago really is.

Appreciate all the kind words, when ya'll start hearing a yankee voice telling everyone (ya'll take care) on the radio, thats me."




Am I wrong here? The people I have met from here want people to succeed in their careers, not take steps back.


I truly am sorry that you were furloughed. I don't ever want to be in that position and I truly feel bad that you were. There was another guy facing furlough on here from a 727 outfit. He made a post about it and I am pretty sure there were a lot of guys on here that were willing to help him out. This forum as far as I am concerned is amazing. There is a lot of help that comes out of these forums from a lot of people.
 
meritflyer said:
Segg, I appreciate your enthusiasm but you seem to be a little out of your element here. How long have you been a pilot? How long have you been involved in contract negotiations and ALPA? How many union committees have you served on? How many contracts have you personally voted on? Talking to "this 25 year old captain" or reading Flying the Line doesnt count, IMO. Of course the CA's and FO's are responsible for the contracts in place. If the contracts are sub par its because the ALPA negotiated a crappy contract. Pilots have the responsibility to throw out any negotitor that is not serving their cause. I as a paying member of our home owner's association have a duty to bust out any issues that the home owner's board tries to throw at us.

This is a process of showing your worth. Its not going to happen overnight. The paycuts and other concessions have been lost over the life of aviation and flying airliners. Not since 9/11 like some may think.

This mentality that we're going to "take it back" I can appreciate because I am a firm believer pilots are mistreated every day but do you know what you're taking back? Is it QOL, pay, benefits?

I will reiterate, I have a problem with the ALPA because I dont think its its bark is as bad as its bite. This is a common feeling amongst thousands of pilots as well. The ALPA needs to re-group and decide how it's going to determine the worth of the pilots flying the planes.

As I've stated prior, IMO the ALPA needs to hire CEO's, COO's, managers, and other businessman alike to negotiate contracts. Like doctors, pilots may not be the most qualified to go up against some of the largest US company's CEO's.
Click to expand...

Merit, myself and others on here are looking at 40+ year airline careers. It is easy in life to wave the white flag and surrender. ALPA is there for insurance for our careers. It is also important that we use and use ALPA for other things and issues that will be coming up for our careers.

ALPA was started to address airline safety. Why not use ALPA to address CFI issues? Why not use ALPA to address student pilots? We can use ALPA as airline pilots to use it in ways we see fit.

We had BETTER start advocating what is right. Who decides what is right? We do as a pilot group.

If we get the pilots on the same page, have everyone understand it is not right to undercut everyone else and get jobs, like GoJets or scabs, then we take wind out of managements sails. Then they have nothing to go on.

We as pilots need to be unified. FEDEX is probably the most unified Pilot group out there. Look what they were able to negotiate in their last contract. SWA even though not ALPA is unified, look what they have going for them.

If pilots are unified then management has nothing. If pilots think it is just cool to fly then we are screwed.

I'm not out of my element. I am learning a new element. Yes, I might be wrong on some things, but I do have an open mind! I take criticism well (the football time in me), and am open to other ideas.

We should all stand up and fight for what we believe in. I believe pilots should be unified. I'll stand up and fight for that.
 
Mark

And just how does your "berating" help unify the pilot group? How does telling the world that XYZ school sucks..... (to be continued, gotta run to work).

--Rob

Ahh disregard. We will have to agree to disagree. I'm sure you and I would get along fine socially, I like beer, you like beer, you like airplane, I like airplanes, I'm fairly certain we both like boobies, plenty to bond over.
 
Chris_Ford said:
While I don't disagree with the sentiments, civilian trained pilots in the 60s were hired with a private pilot license and that's it. And these are not outliers. So if you wish to cite how it "used" to be, it should be qualified with "in the last 30 years"
Click to expand...

Guys in the 60s weren't upgrading to CA in a jet with 2000 hours, either.....
 
Seggy said:
I thought I did at that time. It was over 20 months ago. In those 20 months I learned a lot. Still have a lot of learning to do, but one thing I did learn is 500 hours is not enough time to be in a 121 cockpit. If you have the opportunity go for it. They will be out there. Just keep an open mind down the road. That is all I am saying.
Click to expand...



Dugie8 said:
Mark

And just how does your "berating" help unify the pilot group? How does telling the world that XYZ school sucks..... (to be continued, gotta run to work).

--Rob
Click to expand...

If you look above I am not 'berating' anyone. Guys should look for the next job, that better one, the one that will enhance their career and help them fulfill their dream. If a legacy calls me tommorow, I am going, even with no Turbine PIC.

If a legacy calls tommorow and their pilots are on strike, am I going, no. Would others who are willing to 'get their the quickest'? That is the question. That attitude is fostered in these fast track programs. How do we know where that attitude will lead to?

I would say 99.999999% of the guys on here would be unified and do the thing I would do not go to that major that was on strike. But how many out there not on Jetcareers would go and cross that line?
 
Let me throw this out there: I was a 4-week wonderchild when I got my PPL. I did NOT do my training at a 'pilot mill', I trained at a Mom & Pop flight school in rural Wisconsin. I trained full-time, and met all the requirements to take my checkride in 4 weeks. I passed said checkride, on the first try. I could have gone onto do my instrument and even commercial and muti ratings the same way. Does that qualify as 'fast-track'? I certainly wasted no time, but Wings USA was not by any stretch of the imagination a pilot mill.

If I had gone onto complete my ratings, would I be considered the same as someone who went to ATP? A low-timer who wanted a 'fast track'?
 
MQAAord said:
If I had gone onto complete my ratings, would I be considered the same as someone who went to ATP? A low-timer who wanted a 'fast track'?
Click to expand...

A few things, first there is NOTHING wrong with anyone going to ATP or a fast-track program. That is the individual.

I have a problem with the mentality that is fostered by these fast-track advertising and 'get their the quickest' ideas.

I did my ratings quickly at a local FBO like yourself. HUGE difference.
 
MQAAord said:
Let me throw this out there: I was a 4-week wonderchild when I got my PPL. I did NOT do my training at a 'pilot mill', I trained at a Mom & Pop flight school in rural Wisconsin. I trained full-time, and met all the requirements to take my checkride in 4 weeks. I passed said checkride, on the first try. I could have gone onto do my instrument and even commercial and muti ratings the same way. Does that qualify as 'fast-track'? I certainly wasted no time, but Wings USA was not by any stretch of the imagination a pilot mill.

If I had gone onto complete my ratings, would I be considered the same as someone who went to ATP? A low-timer who wanted a 'fast track'?
Click to expand...

I think that I like you even more (if that was possible) as a moderator!

;) :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top