BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
*snickers from sidelines
The Great Jumpseat War of 2019
- Thread starter bp
- Start date
“Not going anywhere for a while?”
Old Pete
Cockpit Authoritarian
Let me fix that
Cory Trevor
Well-Known Member
What United is implementing is what Delta CURRENTLY has. How is United ‘strong arming?’
There's a lot of • out there that seem to make some OO pilots feel like we're pretty much OAL. People seem to be all wrapped up with the UAXE carriers not being wholly owned because they're not actually owned by United, like that matters. Like others have said, a lot of OO pilots don't seem to understand that we don't have any leverage.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
That‘s demonstrably untrue. The UAL MEC wanted the priority reprogrammed in the computer system. And it was. SAPA wants the priority changed back. Want to place bets on whether that happens?
BEEF SUPREME
Well-Known Member
Hell no. I'm gonna bury myself in like a tick. To me at least things seem peaky and when it crashes down I've got a nice little place to ride out the next meltdown.
Minuteman
I HAVE STRONG OPINIONS ABOUT AUTOMOTIVE LIGHTING!
If mainline makes a positive space seat for a crewmember when they can't use a jumpseat, and it really is a take-it-or-leave-it 'agreement', why does UAL MEC care if any of the regionals has signed a piece of paper about their policy?
Under this system (the one articulating the tiers of priority), could a mainline pilot going home displace a regional pilot trying to get to work? Apologies if that's a dumb question, but it seems like a lot of convention is being questioned.
Under this system (the one articulating the tiers of priority), could a mainline pilot going home displace a regional pilot trying to get to work? Apologies if that's a dumb question, but it seems like a lot of convention is being questioned.
Old Pete
Cockpit Authoritarian
Who is talking about computer programing?
Here is what ALPA says
“Pilot-in-command (PIC) control over flight deck access and use of the jumpseat is not abrogated or undermined in any manner or under any circumstances.”
Guess what, it doesn’t say except in the case of a reprogrammed computer.
Last May UAL MEC had the computer system changed so that it put UA pilots above UAX pilots on their own metal. Do you want to place bets on how that worked out?
Until the UAL MEC can reprogram my right hand, the one that signs the release, pulls the brake, and closes the door, they need to stop acting like a petulant child.
SlumTodd_Millionaire
Most Hated Member
Old Pete
Cockpit Authoritarian
Yeah, keep acting like a non-union tough guy. Let’s see how that works our for you.
Swing and a miss. Dues paying, PAC donating ALPA member.(and union volunteer). Sometimes you have to call out your own.
Cherokee_Cruiser
Bronteroc
What does the Skywest pilot union have to say about all this?
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Though they fly for all three legacies. Isn't Republic also owned by all three legacies? Not that it really matters in this case, I guess.
Jordan93
Well-Known Member
Republic is not wholly owned. Republic flies for 3 legacies if that’s what you mean.
Maximilian_Jenius
Super User
Yes, I know they're not a wholly owned. But *I believe* that United, Delta and American all took huge stakes in the airline during bankruptcy. My question isn't so much about jump seat priority, or if wholly owned or not. They're not. But if what I stated was correct or not.
bLizZuE
Calling for engine starts en français
It is my understanding that the priority was always intended to be a version of what is currently being debated. The issue was after the merger our IT system was incapable of implementing that type of multi-level sorting. Now, ALPA is saying the IT issue has been resolved and the priority sorting can now be implemented that was always intended. I wasn’t here before the merger and can only attest to what I see now, and that is a mish-mash of two different airline IT systems that barely coalesce into one.
This priority system is based on established standards with AA/AE and DAL/DCI and intends to mirror that standard. I don’t see this as a grab as much as it is a correction to ensure that UAL pilots are not being bumped off United Express flights by a United Express pilot that is commuting to work for our competitor, when not commuting on own metal. A Republic pilot shouldn’t get priority on GoJet over a UAL guy. It’s my understanding that now the Republic pilot and UAL pilot will have equal priority based on time of check-in now. I don’t see that as a priority grab or unfair to anyone. If you’re worried about your priority on a UAXE jumpseat now, then you should encourage your jumpseat committee to sign the agreement so you can enjoy priority over every OAL pilot. Keep in mind this would provide you priority on the UAL jumpseat as well.
It’s not a very popular thought, but United Express is owned by United pilots. Our contract allows that flying and those airplanes to exist. I’ve seen a lot of pushback on that fact with “well, bring it in house” and “why did you outsource it lol?” which are both irrelevant to the fact that the flying belongs to United and the United pilots. The intent for jumpseat priority was always to be what this new reciprocal agreement outlines, it was the lack of ability to program it that prevented this from being enforced.
According to ALPA, these new agreements were sent to the UAX carriers in May of this year. Why is this issue only now creating any traction among the pilot groups? Was this issue raised by the respective UAX carriers in May? What was the reason for these groups to refuse to sign these agreements? What are these groups hoping for? I’ve seen many people say ALPA should have negotiated with these carriers. What terms would be negotiated? I have stated before, we had nothing to negotiate. We are offering these carriers a priority on our mainline jumpseat, and asking for the same in return. The intent, in my opinion, is to ensure that UAL and UAX pilots enjoy priority on respective jumpseats. By refusing to sign the new agreement, these carriers have negatively affected this by removing any priority treatment.
Regarding this talk of retaliation or some sort of career progression hinderance; I think that is ridiculous and I highly doubt anyone will be named in any way that could potentially negatively affect any progression. What I do think is possible, is a future interview candidate could be asked about this situation and asked to elaborate on their thoughts on the issue, how they handled it, and whether or not they thought it was appropriate or necessary. I have no insider knowledge of the hiring process and I’m completely guessing; if anything does happen, I think it would be something along these lines.
I can’t speak to the talk of management or the “union” claiming that adding a pilot to the jumpseat that has no reciprocal agreement could lead to CERTIFICATE ACTION either. I have no idea how your airline operates or how management enforces claims like that. I also highly doubt the FAA cares about this issue. This issue is all about who gets on first and I highly doubt they care about that delineation.
I am seeing a lot of angry pilots post about how much they contribute to the UAL brand as a UAX pilot. Nobody is arguing the amount of domestic flying that these combined airlines complete. This isn’t a contest about who does more. Just take a step back and realize that even though your airline may complete X percentage, the UAX carriers exist because of the UAL pilot contract. The UAL flying belongs to UAL and UAL pilots. Our jumpseat priority on mainline flights is set by ALPA. Our reciprocal agreements will mirror that priority. That’s the essence of this entire debate.
I don’t think it’s a turf war. I don’t think it’s a power grab. Jumpseat wars have no winners. Only people missing commutes to home or hopefully work (that’s a joke).
This priority system is based on established standards with AA/AE and DAL/DCI and intends to mirror that standard. I don’t see this as a grab as much as it is a correction to ensure that UAL pilots are not being bumped off United Express flights by a United Express pilot that is commuting to work for our competitor, when not commuting on own metal. A Republic pilot shouldn’t get priority on GoJet over a UAL guy. It’s my understanding that now the Republic pilot and UAL pilot will have equal priority based on time of check-in now. I don’t see that as a priority grab or unfair to anyone. If you’re worried about your priority on a UAXE jumpseat now, then you should encourage your jumpseat committee to sign the agreement so you can enjoy priority over every OAL pilot. Keep in mind this would provide you priority on the UAL jumpseat as well.
It’s not a very popular thought, but United Express is owned by United pilots. Our contract allows that flying and those airplanes to exist. I’ve seen a lot of pushback on that fact with “well, bring it in house” and “why did you outsource it lol?” which are both irrelevant to the fact that the flying belongs to United and the United pilots. The intent for jumpseat priority was always to be what this new reciprocal agreement outlines, it was the lack of ability to program it that prevented this from being enforced.
According to ALPA, these new agreements were sent to the UAX carriers in May of this year. Why is this issue only now creating any traction among the pilot groups? Was this issue raised by the respective UAX carriers in May? What was the reason for these groups to refuse to sign these agreements? What are these groups hoping for? I’ve seen many people say ALPA should have negotiated with these carriers. What terms would be negotiated? I have stated before, we had nothing to negotiate. We are offering these carriers a priority on our mainline jumpseat, and asking for the same in return. The intent, in my opinion, is to ensure that UAL and UAX pilots enjoy priority on respective jumpseats. By refusing to sign the new agreement, these carriers have negatively affected this by removing any priority treatment.
Regarding this talk of retaliation or some sort of career progression hinderance; I think that is ridiculous and I highly doubt anyone will be named in any way that could potentially negatively affect any progression. What I do think is possible, is a future interview candidate could be asked about this situation and asked to elaborate on their thoughts on the issue, how they handled it, and whether or not they thought it was appropriate or necessary. I have no insider knowledge of the hiring process and I’m completely guessing; if anything does happen, I think it would be something along these lines.
I can’t speak to the talk of management or the “union” claiming that adding a pilot to the jumpseat that has no reciprocal agreement could lead to CERTIFICATE ACTION either. I have no idea how your airline operates or how management enforces claims like that. I also highly doubt the FAA cares about this issue. This issue is all about who gets on first and I highly doubt they care about that delineation.
I am seeing a lot of angry pilots post about how much they contribute to the UAL brand as a UAX pilot. Nobody is arguing the amount of domestic flying that these combined airlines complete. This isn’t a contest about who does more. Just take a step back and realize that even though your airline may complete X percentage, the UAX carriers exist because of the UAL pilot contract. The UAL flying belongs to UAL and UAL pilots. Our jumpseat priority on mainline flights is set by ALPA. Our reciprocal agreements will mirror that priority. That’s the essence of this entire debate.
I don’t think it’s a turf war. I don’t think it’s a power grab. Jumpseat wars have no winners. Only people missing commutes to home or hopefully work (that’s a joke).
bLizZuE
Calling for engine starts en français
If that wasn’t enough to read- I believe these changes are also a step towards allowing us all to list for the jumpseat so we can do what every mainline pilot does when commuting: list for the jumpseat and alert other commuters of their priority before they even show up to the airport. Commuting on mainline flights is such a gentleman’s sport when you can see other jumpseaters listed and either choose to show up and hope for a seat or choose a different flight because you can see the potential competition for the jumpseat.