z987k
Well-Known Member
No, you may operate IFR in IMC without a clearance or even a flight plan on file in uncontrolled airspace.
Technicality Question that has probably been asked before
- Thread starter ppragman
- Start date
z987k
Well-Known Member
In the OP's post we plan on being VMC by the time we enter controlled airspace so I'd just throw 1200 in there. It's not like it's going to be picked up.
z987k
Well-Known Member
Again, in the OP's scenaro, you'll be VMC before you've left footprint of the runway so... not really.
ppragman
No pasa nada.
I certainly wouldn't. I'd be the one still tied down calling 911 for you.
If, for argument sake, I was forced to depart in such conditions and lost it low to the ground I'm not wasting anytime with any restart. Pitch and trim min sink, fuel off, door unlatched, snug my belt (tell pax to also), radio mayday, mental prep for entry back into IMC and keeping my eye pealed in hopes I can make the impact survivable. You can stammer on all you want about how simple a restart procedures is, but IMO it's breeding false hope, poor mental prep, and will adversely affect how well you could be flying the airplane at this critical moment.
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Example. Engine loss 500 feet, 200 foot thick fog layer. Count to 5. Worst case that will be our freeze up time. Sink rate 1k. Look inside and find the pump. Unless you sit eyes closed in the cockpit regularly and flip the switches you will need do this. 5 seconds. Panic it doesn't restart. 3 seconds. Flip tanks. 2 seconds. Panic again, still no restart and you just went back in the soup. 5 more seconds. Ok 20 seconds so far, or 333 feet. You're 10 seconds from impact and still trying to restart. You might think you can do it faster, human physiology will disagree. This while your passenger is screaming OMG we are going to die and asking you all sorts of questions that you'll either attempt to ignore or take time to shut them up.
It's easy to think when there isn't a gun to your head. If procedures were so simple under the gun we wouldn't have need for things like auto feather. I mean all that is is pulling one leaver and flying the airplane. Don't see how anyone ever has a Vmc to their death. (Severe sarcasm)
I feel like I have to address this. I've burned a tank dry at 500' when I was flying 25 legs a day out of Juneau. I was fatigued and forgot to switch tanks coming back to JNU in crummy-garbage weather, I was slowed because I was holding to get a special and was trying to conserve fuel. It was pretty much a non-event if you've ever burned a tank dry before. In almost every piston single I've ever flown, switch tanks - boost pump - on while simultaneously pitching for best glide. I'll be honest, I could probably sit in a Cherokee 6 or a 207 tomorrow and touch everything with my eyes closed.
I remember that in the 207 with a full load a power-off idle descent would give me something like 700fpm rate of descent at best glide. I had plenty of time to "port a tank" and restart-it from higher than 200' give or take. Similar in the Cherokee 6.
I see where you're coming from - but I disagree on the DON'T DO IT philosophy. You should pick an altitude below which you'll do nothing but dodge obstacles and hold on, but obviously that depends on the airplane, the conditions, and most importantly the pilot. This will vary from flight to flight, and is why we brief our departures. When I was flying the Cherokee 6, I figured the altitude I'd be able to get a restart attempt in was about 300' to 400' AGL and still have time to shut everything off in a hurry, a turn-back to the airport was essentially always impossible. In the PC-12 by contrast we don't attempt a relight unless we're way up high and have battery to spare - but we can attempt a turn around as low as 1000' AGL (and believe it or not, it's been done as low as 800').
Chief Captain
Well-Known Member
If the visibility is 1/4 sm, the OP can't depart anyway, because he needs 1sm in class G. Am I missing something?
Houston
Well-Known Member
The 1 SM requirement comes from 14 CFR 91.155, which is VFR Weather Minimums. If the pilot and aircraft are IFR capable and current, then an IFR departure into Class G airspace is not a regulatory violation of that FAR. However, as others pointed out earlier, depending on the circumstances, a violation of 14 CFR 91.13(a) could be applicable.
dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
I'm a little fuzzy on this one too. It was mentioned earlier that using a VFR transpponder code, in IMC, while operating with no flight plan would be an acceptable course of action.
I've never done this so I still confused on the operations side of flying in IMC from "A" to "B" within uncontrolled airspace without a clearance or a flight plan. A little help here.......
?
z987k
Well-Known Member
Flying IFR(and IMC) below 1200 AGL en-route isn't the smartest thing to do, and I would offer that it is most certainly careless and reckless. I seriously doubt many if anyone actually does that, or if they did they're not alive to tell about it. That is not what the OP asked though.I'm a little fuzzy on this one too. It was mentioned earlier that using a VFR transpponder code, in IMC, while operating with no flight plan would be an acceptable course of action.
I've never done this so I still confused on the operations side of flying in IMC from "A" to "B" within uncontrolled airspace without a clearance or a flight plan. A little help here.......
91.173 says -
Notice there's nothing about uncontrolled airspace. This is a case of, it's not prohibited nor is it specifically allowed.
As far as what you're squawking, you're overthinking this. You're in uncontrolled airspace, it really doesn't matter what you're squawking to be honest.
Here's how it's going to work in real life. You landed at PAEW three weeks ago and went camping/hunting. You come back to the airplane and you know it is a 200 foot layer of fog (because you were on a tiny hill on your way back to the airport). It's clear above. You take off in the 1/4SM vis, break out in 200 feet/5 seconds after takeoff at 222 MSL, enter controlled airspace at 1200AGL climb to 7500ft and continue to your destination VFR because you're now on top.
Roger Roger
Bottom of the list
well, don't forget that in many places the uncontrolled airspace goes much higher than 1200 AGL.
z987k
Well-Known Member
Yes, but in those places it's still not very flat, and a lot of rocks are going to be sticking up into that extra space between G and E.
dustoff17
Still trying to reach the Top Shelf
O.K., I'm with you. My read from what you posted earlier is that this is a common practice event and everyone is doing it that can. I feel better now.
I agree this CAN be done but I also believe we can state the same thing about a lot of different situations in aviation (or life for that matter).
Cessnaflyer
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
I've had an engine failure in a single on takeoff. Lucky for me I didn't panic like you would in your example. It was a simple accident by a student that flipped the fuel selector with their headset cord in a 152. We were probably only a hundred feet off the runway and lost little altitude to get fuel back to the fire.I certainly wouldn't. I'd be the one still tied down calling 911 for you.
If, for argument sake, I was forced to depart in such conditions and lost it low to the ground I'm not wasting anytime with any restart. Pitch and trim min sink, fuel off, door unlatched, snug my belt (tell pax to also), radio mayday, mental prep for entry back into IMC and keeping my eye pealed in hopes I can make the impact survivable. You can stammer on all you want about how simple a restart procedures is, but IMO it's breeding false hope, poor mental prep, and will adversely affect how well you could be flying the airplane at this critical moment.
--
Example. Engine loss 500 feet, 200 foot thick fog layer. Count to 5. Worst case that will be our freeze up time. Sink rate 1k. Look inside and find the pump. Unless you sit eyes closed in the cockpit regularly and flip the switches you will need do this. 5 seconds. Panic it doesn't restart. 3 seconds. Flip tanks. 2 seconds. Panic again, still no restart and you just went back in the soup. 5 more seconds. Ok 20 seconds so far, or 333 feet. You're 10 seconds from impact and still trying to restart. You might think you can do it faster, human physiology will disagree. This while your passenger is screaming OMG we are going to die and asking you all sorts of questions that you'll either attempt to ignore or take time to shut them up.
It's easy to think when there isn't a gun to your head. If procedures were so simple under the gun we wouldn't have need for things like auto feather. I mean all that is is pulling one leaver and flying the airplane. Don't see how anyone ever has a Vmc to their death. (Severe sarcasm)
I used to make this a big point when I was CFII. IFR in uncontrolled airspace is NOT specifically regulated therefore, by logical extension, it is 100% legal in the eyes of 91.173. Obviously there is always 91.13 that the FAA can nail you with and they most likely will because while it is legal, if done without regard to the risks, it can be INCREDIBLY dangerous.
With regards to why the FAA doesn't specifically regulate this practice, I believe it has to do with the reasons why airplanes fly. In the part 91 world, the motivations to fly are really personal reasons (leisure, personal travel, etc.) and since there are no other real motivators, these flights probably have a relatively lowER risk of doing stupid stuff AND, if stupid stuff is done, the public/industry outcry will be minimal. (vs. the airlines)
In the commercial aviation world, the motivation to fly is for the purpose of MAKING MONEY and we ALL know that when there is money to be made, sometimes decisions get made that would NOT have been made if money was not a factor. When money is a factor, generally people are more likely to be less conservative and/or make bad decisions in these gray areas vs recreational fliers. This is why the FAA regulates 135 / 121 so much more and, in my opinion, why the FAA doesn't regulate 91 ops as much. Regulating more things requires more justification (and more money) and when there is no real PRESSING problem with something, "why fix what ain't broken?"
Side note: I used to use this logic when explaining to my cargo drivers why I couldn't takeoff with their cargo on board but could without their cargo on board when the visibility was really low. I still think they didn't understand / care but hey, at least I tried.
With regards to why the FAA doesn't specifically regulate this practice, I believe it has to do with the reasons why airplanes fly. In the part 91 world, the motivations to fly are really personal reasons (leisure, personal travel, etc.) and since there are no other real motivators, these flights probably have a relatively lowER risk of doing stupid stuff AND, if stupid stuff is done, the public/industry outcry will be minimal. (vs. the airlines)
In the commercial aviation world, the motivation to fly is for the purpose of MAKING MONEY and we ALL know that when there is money to be made, sometimes decisions get made that would NOT have been made if money was not a factor. When money is a factor, generally people are more likely to be less conservative and/or make bad decisions in these gray areas vs recreational fliers. This is why the FAA regulates 135 / 121 so much more and, in my opinion, why the FAA doesn't regulate 91 ops as much. Regulating more things requires more justification (and more money) and when there is no real PRESSING problem with something, "why fix what ain't broken?"
Side note: I used to use this logic when explaining to my cargo drivers why I couldn't takeoff with their cargo on board but could without their cargo on board when the visibility was really low. I still think they didn't understand / care but hey, at least I tried.
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