Technicality Question that has probably been asked before

z987k said:
Taking off in 1/4 mile is not difficult or dangerous. Landing, aside from a Cat 2 or 3, is.
Click to expand...

Did you read what I quoted? I quoted a response citing it being dangerous due to inbound aircraft. I agree it's not difficult or dangerous with the caveat that I wouldn't do it in a single. That's my own limitation though, I like to be able to get back.
 
shdw said:
Did you read what I quoted? I quoted a response citing it being dangerous due to inbound aircraft. I agree it's not difficult or dangerous with the caveat that I wouldn't do it in a single. That's my own limitation though, I like to be able to get back.
Click to expand...
I understand your original post but why would the single engine matter? Your not going to be gliding in on an ILS if lose your engine.
 
Cessnaflyer said:
I understand your original post but why would the single engine matter? Your not going to be gliding in on an ILS if lose your engine.
Click to expand...


No, but you will break out with at least 200 feet to make small corrections. Even if it is just enough time to put it between trees, that's better than blinding smacking into something in my opinion. If you can tune in a loc back course or use your gps you might even break out somewhere relatively close to the airport with a chance to put it down nicely.
 
shdw said:
No, but you will break out with at least 200 feet to make small corrections. Even if it is just enough time to put it between trees, that's better than blinding smacking into something in my opinion. If you can tune in a loc back course or use your gps you might even break out somewhere relatively close to the airport with a chance to put it down nicely.
Click to expand...
So, you are saying even if you are going only 60 knots a best glide for some small single trainers that while trying to restart an engine you are going to avoid trees in 2 seconds?
 
Cessnaflyer said:
trying to restart an engine you are going to avoid trees in 2 seconds?
Click to expand...

Restart? If you lose an engine below pattern altitude do you try and restart it? Eek not me. I will be flying.

And 200 feet is roughly 15 in a trainer or 10 in higher performance singles. Not to mention it's plenty of time to make a 20-30 degree turn toward a point best suited for impact. In 00 whatever you see first is what you're going to hit.

Keep in mind this is all talk of an ILS equipped airport. Non precision fields you'd break out with ~500 feet to maneuver to a best location. In either case the answer to your why is one simple word: options.
 
shdw said:
Restart? If you lose an engine below pattern altitude do you try and restart it? Eek not me. I will be flying.

And 200 feet is roughly 15 in a trainer or 10 in higher performance singles. Not to mention it's plenty of time to make a 20-30 degree turn toward a point best suited for impact. In 00 whatever you see first is what you're going to hit.

Keep in mind this is all talk of an ILS equipped airport. Non precision fields you'd break out with ~500 feet to maneuver to a best location. In either case the answer to your why is one simple word: options.
Click to expand...
The OP specified a class G airport. There is certainly no ILS. Likely no approach at all.
A good example is PAEW.
 
shdw said:
Restart? If you lose an engine below pattern altitude do you try and restart it? Eek not me. I will be flying.

And 200 feet is roughly 15 in a trainer or 10 in higher performance singles. Not to mention it's plenty of time to make a 20-30 degree turn toward a point best suited for impact. In 00 whatever you see first is what you're going to hit.

Keep in mind this is all talk of an ILS equipped airport. Non precision fields you'd break out with ~500 feet to maneuver to a best location. In either case the answer to your why is one simple word: options.
Click to expand...
shdw said:
Restart? If you lose an engine below pattern altitude do you try and restart it? Eek not me. I will be flying.

And 200 feet is roughly 15 in a trainer or 10 in higher performance singles. Not to mention it's plenty of time to make a 20-30 degree turn toward a point best suited for impact. In 00 whatever you see first is what you're going to hit.

Keep in mind this is all talk of an ILS equipped airport. Non precision fields you'd break out with ~500 feet to maneuver to a best location. In either case the answer to your why is one simple word: options.
Click to expand...
in a 1/4 mile of vis you are not going to be guiding your aircraft very quickly anywhere. Attempting a restart should be fairly simple in all singles. Flip a few switches for pumps and turn a knob and that is about it.
 
Cessnaflyer said:
in a 1/4 mile of vis you are not going to be guiding your aircraft very quickly anywhere. Attempting a restart should be fairly simple in all singles. Flip a few switches for pumps and turn a knob and that is about it.
Click to expand...

I certainly wouldn't. I'd be the one still tied down calling 911 for you. :)

If, for argument sake, I was forced to depart in such conditions and lost it low to the ground I'm not wasting anytime with any restart. Pitch and trim min sink, fuel off, door unlatched, snug my belt (tell pax to also), radio mayday, mental prep for entry back into IMC and keeping my eye pealed in hopes I can make the impact survivable. You can stammer on all you want about how simple a restart procedures is, but IMO it's breeding false hope, poor mental prep, and will adversely affect how well you could be flying the airplane at this critical moment.

--

Example. Engine loss 500 feet, 200 foot thick fog layer. Count to 5. Worst case that will be our freeze up time. Sink rate 1k. Look inside and find the pump. Unless you sit eyes closed in the cockpit regularly and flip the switches you will need do this. 5 seconds. Panic it doesn't restart. 3 seconds. Flip tanks. 2 seconds. Panic again, still no restart and you just went back in the soup. 5 more seconds. Ok 20 seconds so far, or 333 feet. You're 10 seconds from impact and still trying to restart. You might think you can do it faster, human physiology will disagree. This while your passenger is screaming OMG we are going to die and asking you all sorts of questions that you'll either attempt to ignore or take time to shut them up.

It's easy to think when there isn't a gun to your head. If procedures were so simple under the gun we wouldn't have need for things like auto feather. I mean all that is is pulling one leaver and flying the airplane. Don't see how anyone ever has a Vmc to their death. (Severe sarcasm)
 
I am not a CFI but have noticed something that has not been pointed out and probably should be. This is the original post:
ppragman said:
Imagine you're on the ground at an airport with a thin layer of fog. The vis is 1/4 SM, and you know that the ceiling is only 200' thick (because you're psychic, or have a balloon with a camera and an altimeter on it, or whatever, this is a thought experiment bear with me). You're part 91, and the airspace is class G until 1200' AGL. The terrain is non-mountainous. There's no obstacles that require an ODP or anything like that.

Could you depart IFR without a clearance in Class G because by the time you enter controlled airspace at 1200' AGL you're 1000' above the clouds, and because the entire time you were in Class G you were climbing out - which means you're not in violation of 91.177 (except as required for takeoff and landing), then when you become VFR at 1200' you're 1000' above the cloud layer. The only thing I can think of would be the catch-all 91.13 violation if they wanted to get you - but out of curiosity, anyone have any case law?
Click to expand...
We have to remember that we are not "IFR" until we get an IFR clearance. Until ATC issues a clearance and it's been acknowledged, we're considered to be operating VFR (with all the applicable responsibilities such as operating in VMC).

In this scenario, what you will have done is to depart VFR under MVFR at best, then entered IMC (even if only for a brief time). By the time you've reach controlled airspace at 1,200', you've already been "reckless" IAW the previous FFA rulings.

If you wouldn't take off in these conditions with a FFA examiner sitting next to you, don't do it without him......just sayin'...:D
 
Last edited:
dustoff17 said:
I am not a CFI but have noticed something that has not been pointed out and probably should be. This is the original post:

We have to remember that we are not "IFR" until we get an IFR clearance. Until ATC issues a clearance and it's been acknowledged, we're considered to be operating VFR (with all the applicable responsibilities such as operating in VMC).

In this scenario, what you will have done is to depart VFR under MVFR at best, then entered IMC (even if only for a brief time). By the time you've reach controlled airspace at 1,200', you've already been "reckless" IAW the previous FFA rulings.

If you wouldn't take off in these conditions with a FFA examiner sitting next to you, don't do it without him......just sayin'...:D
Click to expand...
That is not true. You don't need a clearance to be IFR in uncontrolled airspace.
 
I think I'm understanding you here.You're stating IFR flight plan, operating VMC while in uncontrolled airspace.

I should have been more specific in my post as I was refering to the original post.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top