TEB crash 5/15/17

Circling approaches can meet stabilized approach criteria. There are also plenty of strait in approaches that do NOT meet stabilized approach criteria.
 
Richman said:
Haha, circling approaches and stabilized approaches in the same sentence...

Lolz.
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It's not so much that circles have to be unstabilized, just that so often they are ...because they're often unfamiliar spacially and/or procedurally. Redundantly, yet importantly, if we did them more often, they'd be more familiar. There's more going on, the tempo of events is different, and generally the airspeeds should be different which means more power adjustments. As @MikeD said in an earlier post, you've got to plan ahead and know where you are -laterally and vertically- and where you're going. But if pre-planned, practiced, and executed correctly they are neither inherently unstable nor inherently dangerous.

Another thing that strikes me about circles is they are generally happening when things are already busy and they tend to make the whole situation even busier, which leads to a "just get it on the runway" vibe all around. I have no hard evidence, but my sense is that vibe leads many pilots to forget the option to get the hell out of Dodge and just go missed when they get behind or things don't look right.
 
Crop Duster said:
.

Another thing that strikes me about circles is they are generally happening when things are already busy and they tend to make the whole situation even busier, which leads to a "just get it on the runway" vibe all around. I have no hard evidence, but my sense is that vibe leads many pilots to forget the option to get the hell out of Dodge and just go missed when they get behind or things don't look right.
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A few decades ago in the chief, I can still remember IFR to an uncontrolled field in IMC shooting a VOR approach to circling mins due to the runway that the straight-in mins were to being closed, so had to circle to the perpendicular. Only person operating at the field and cleared to CTAF from center.

Broke out of the WX with about 200 feet to go to MDA, so ceilings right about there and rain/snow flurries. During the circle, managed to misjudge the overshooting winds to the perpendicular runway, and I overshot the turn to final. Continued the lazy turn around towards the center of the field and didn't attempt to rack it around and risk a final turn stall/spin. Prepping to go missed, it occurred to me looking around at the WX that I can easily maintain VMC at or above MDA, out to my circling protected radius area and beyond no problem, and that there were no circling restrictions on the approach...can circle any direction. So I just remained level at MDA, dirty with partial flaps, and continued a smooth pattern setup....essentially a wider 360 inside my circling protected area, properly took the winds into account this time, and flew around in a stable curvilinear path to base/final again, full flaps on rolling out aligned, and landed successfully. Unusual, but doable since I hadn't attempted to salvage the first pattern and just kept the plane flying smoothly and in trim, allowing the mind to take in the surroundings and situation, rather than having to expend brain bytes flying the plane. And it worked out.

So there are options, but as has already been mentioned by you, me and others, options require the right set of circumstances, require the pilot to be well ahead of the aircraft, and require good situational awareness. My maneuvering under the WX only worked because of the airspace available due to no circling restrictions. Had I accidentally popped in again, I wouldve simply climbed, turned towards the airport, and executed the missed from wherever I was, as per normal. But the right set of circumstances and being ahead of the plane, allowed me to not have to shoot another approach.
 
MikeD said:
A few decades ago in the chief, I can still remember IFR to an uncontrolled field in IMC shooting a VOR approach to circling mins due to the runway that the straight-in mins were to being closed, so had to circle to the perpendicular. Only person operating at the field and cleared to CTAF from center.

Broke out of the WX with about 200 feet to go to MDA, so ceilings right about there and rain/snow flurries. During the circle, managed to misjudge the overshooting winds to the perpendicular runway, and I overshot the turn to final. Continued the lazy turn around towards the center of the field and didn't attempt to rack it around and risk a final turn stall/spin. Prepping to go missed, it occurred to me looking around at the WX that I can easily maintain at or above MDA, out to my circling protected radius area and beyond no problem, and that there were no circling restrictions on the approach...can circle any direction. So I just remained level at MDA, dirty with partial flaps, and continued a smooth pattern setup....essentially a wider 360 inside my circling protected area, properly took the winds into account this time, and flew around in a stable curvilinear path to base/final again, full flaps on rolling out aligned, and landed successfully. Unusual, but doable since I hadn't attempted to salvage the first pattern and just kept the plane flying smoothly and in trim, allowing the mind to take in the surroundings and situation, rather than having to expend brain bytes flying the plane. And it worked out.

So there are options, but as has already been mentioned by you, me and others, options require the right set of circumstances, require the pilot to be well ahead of the aircraft, and require good situational awareness. My maneuvering under the WX only worked because of the airspace available due to no circling restrictions. Had I accidentally popped in again, I wouldve simply climbed, turned towards the airport, and executed the missed from wherever I was, as per normal. But the right set of circumstances and being ahead of the plane, allowed me to not have to shoot another approach.
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A good option to apprehend and use. Unfortunately, it's not a subject that gets a lot of treatment in the classroom or real flying. The best part is that at circling mins you're usually out of radar coverage so even though you are doing something totally legal, no one will ever have to know. ;)
 
Crop Duster said:
A good option to apprehend and use. Unfortunately, it's not a subject that gets a lot of treatment in the classroom or real flying. The best part is that at circling mins you're usually out of radar coverage so even though you are doing something totally legal, no one will ever have to know. ;)
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I think that in addition to not getting classroom time as a viable option (again in the right circumstances), I think that most people assume one has to always go missed, and assume something like this isn't legal.

When the reality is, I'm IFR, I'm the only person at the uncontrolled field, center or FSS are awaiting my call down before launching or putting someone else on the approach were there anyone else. So legally speaking, if I can maintain VMC at MDA and can stay within the circling radius for my category, I can circle around all day pending either no circling restrictions or circling restrictions that I can safely comply with. Perfectly legit. But again, a number of key stars have to align correctly, and the pilot has to both be prepared for them as well as recognize the situation as it occurs and be ahead of it.

Of course if at any time, any of the above is lost, safely execute a missed.
 
Ditto ...
MikeD said:
good situational awareness.
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http://www.avmed.in/2011/03/lost-it-situational-awareness/
Situational Awareness “can be conceived of as the pilot’s internal model of the world around him at any point in time” [1].

Conventional flight requires the pilots to glean information from the instrument panel and other auditory inputs, interpret it and draw inference to maintain their situational awareness and in turn ensure safe flight. And if any information input suggests an abnormality, they need to interpret the cause, make necessary corrections or take remedial actions, to continue flying safe. Situational awareness, thus, is inclusive of flight environment, location of aircraft, terrain, navigation, communication, weather etc. [2]. Salient cognitive processes associated with situational awareness are: mental modeling of problems, using knowledge structures or schemata, and categorizing situations or scenario [3, 4].
 
MikeD said:
A few decades ago in the chief, I can still remember IFR to an uncontrolled field in IMC shooting a VOR approach to circling mins due to the runway that the straight-in mins were to being closed, so had to circle to the perpendicular. Only person operating at the field and cleared to CTAF from center.

Broke out of the WX with about 200 feet to go to MDA, so ceilings right about there and rain/snow flurries. During the circle, managed to misjudge the overshooting winds to the perpendicular runway, and I overshot the turn to final. Continued the lazy turn around towards the center of the field and didn't attempt to rack it around and risk a final turn stall/spin. Prepping to go missed, it occurred to me looking around at the WX that I can easily maintain VMC at or above MDA, out to my circling protected radius area and beyond no problem, and that there were no circling restrictions on the approach...can circle any direction. So I just remained level at MDA, dirty with partial flaps, and continued a smooth pattern setup....essentially a wider 360 inside my circling protected area, properly took the winds into account this time, and flew around in a stable curvilinear path to base/final again, full flaps on rolling out aligned, and landed successfully. Unusual, but doable since I hadn't attempted to salvage the first pattern and just kept the plane flying smoothly and in trim, allowing the mind to take in the surroundings and situation, rather than having to expend brain bytes flying the plane. And it worked out.

So there are options, but as has already been mentioned by you, me and others, options require the right set of circumstances, require the pilot to be well ahead of the aircraft, and require good situational awareness. My maneuvering under the WX only worked because of the airspace available due to no circling restrictions. Had I accidentally popped in again, I wouldve simply climbed, turned towards the airport, and executed the missed from wherever I was, as per normal. But the right set of circumstances and being ahead of the plane, allowed me to not have to shoot another approach.
Click to expand...
Gotta be on top of that in the chief, with gear down and flaps 15 unless you add a boatload of power (to about 30" MP) early its very easy to have the airspeed decay alarmingly during the circle.
 
MikeD said:
A few decades ago in the chief, I can still remember IFR to an uncontrolled field in IMC shooting a VOR approach to circling mins due to the runway that the straight-in mins were to being closed, so had to circle to the perpendicular. Only person operating at the field and cleared to CTAF from center.

Broke out of the WX with about 200 feet to go to MDA, so ceilings right about there and rain/snow flurries. During the circle, managed to misjudge the overshooting winds to the perpendicular runway, and I overshot the turn to final. Continued the lazy turn around towards the center of the field and didn't attempt to rack it around and risk a final turn stall/spin. Prepping to go missed, it occurred to me looking around at the WX that I can easily maintain VMC at or above MDA, out to my circling protected radius area and beyond no problem, and that there were no circling restrictions on the approach...can circle any direction. So I just remained level at MDA, dirty with partial flaps, and continued a smooth pattern setup....essentially a wider 360 inside my circling protected area, properly took the winds into account this time, and flew around in a stable curvilinear path to base/final again, full flaps on rolling out aligned, and landed successfully. Unusual, but doable since I hadn't attempted to salvage the first pattern and just kept the plane flying smoothly and in trim, allowing the mind to take in the surroundings and situation, rather than having to expend brain bytes flying the plane. And it worked out.

So there are options, but as has already been mentioned by you, me and others, options require the right set of circumstances, require the pilot to be well ahead of the aircraft, and require good situational awareness. My maneuvering under the WX only worked because of the airspace available due to no circling restrictions. Had I accidentally popped in again, I wouldve simply climbed, turned towards the airport, and executed the missed from wherever I was, as per normal. But the right set of circumstances and being ahead of the plane, allowed me to not have to shoot another approach.
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Well Done!
 
Roger Roger said:
Gotta be on top of that in the chief, with gear down and flaps 15 unless you add a boatload of power (to about 30" MP) early its very easy to have the airspeed decay alarmingly during the circle.
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Surely, he meant the Thunderchief. ;)
 
Roger Roger said:
Gotta be on top of that in the chief, with gear down and flaps 15 unless you add a boatload of power (to about 30" MP) early its very easy to have the airspeed decay alarmingly during the circle.
Click to expand...

Agreed, and also minimize and keep smooth all maneuvering. Had i attempted to rack it around in the overshoot, it wouldve been pretty much guaranteed i wouldve packed it in.
 
NovemberEcho said:
I swear there's been an uptick in MMU traffic since this accident
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That was always my trick when TEB was going wonky " Mr or Mrs so and so, we'all have anywhere from a two hour delay up to and including something so long that we'll run out of duty time to go there. But, I can set up a car service to pick you up in Morristown and we can leave on time "
It saved a lot of delays, and a lot of stress caused by angry rich people.
:)
 
Beep said:
That was always my trick when TEB was going wonky " Mr or Mrs so and so, we'all have anywhere from a two hour delay up to and including something so long that we'll run out of duty time to go there. But, I can set up a car service to pick you up in Morristown and we can leave on time "
It saved a lot of delays, and a lot of stress caused by angry rich people.
:)
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Yeah I hate when y'all do that cause usually if TEB has a program it's caused we're swamped with volume, and you guys going to MMU doesn't alleviate anything for us. In fact it makes it more complicated because MMU and CDW are 1 in 1 out.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Yeah I hate when y'all do that cause usually if TEB has a program it's caused we're swamped with volume, and you guys going to MMU doesn't alleviate anything for us. In fact it makes it more complicated because MMU and CDW are 1 in 1 out.
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I heard a funny transaction recently.
A bizjet pilot was all bent out of shape about getting slowed over the south headed toward TEB. He asked if the airline guys were getting slowed into NYC airports.
ATC response was "no."
Bizjet guy called back with "request."
ATC: "lemme guess, you want to change your destination?"
Lol.
 
NovemberEcho said:
Yeah I hate when y'all do that cause usually if TEB has a program it's caused we're swamped with volume, and you guys going to MMU doesn't alleviate anything for us. In fact it makes it more complicated because MMU and CDW are 1 in 1 out.
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Actually I would just file to MMU, not file to TEB then change the the destination when I got there, that's not the way I roll!
:)
 
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