TEB crash 5/15/17

That's all well and good, but when you start your circle 4 miles late it's kind of hard to pin that on local procedures.

This is true. But the idea would be a review of the procedures themselves and whether they're adequate and safe when properly followed, not necessarily when not followed.

Again, it's the job of a pilot to avoid square corners and not hit the ground or anything attached to it. However local procedures for noise or other admin, as well as ATC pressure, shouldn't help push a pilot into a square corner.
 
This is serial number 452 which would have originally been fitted with the FC-530 autopilot. It would have had altitude preselect, and VNAV modes. I have seen pilots with significant difficulties with descent management in the Lear. I don't know why.

Edit: I'm wrong. This aircraft had the FC-200. No preselect, no VNAV...
 
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You're severely overestimating the autopilot in the Lear 35. :) No vertical modes are worth a damn with the autopilot on. It may or may not have had VNAV guidance (probably did), and it may or may not have had altitude preselect (probably didn't).

Not saying one way or the other if that played a role, time will tell.
I figured I might be :)
 
This is serial number 452 which would have originally been fitted with the FC-530 autopilot. It would have had altitude preselect, and VNAV modes. I have seen pilots with significant difficulties with descent management in the Lear. I don't know why.

Edit: I'm wrong. This aircraft had the FC-200. No preselect, no VNAV...
Wouldn't it have to have it if it was RVSM'd at some point? Not t sure where to find that though.
 
This is serial number 452 which would have originally been fitted with the FC-530 autopilot. It would have had altitude preselect, and VNAV modes. I have seen pilots with significant difficulties with descent management in the Lear. I don't know why.

Edit: I'm wrong. This aircraft had the FC-200. No preselect, no VNAV...
I flew this plane for 6 years. It had the FC-200 autopilot, no big door and aeronca TR's. Universal 1K. As far as Lear 35's go it was as nice as it gets.
 
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Agreed. Just like if you're flying a formal circle off an instrument approach, barring any circling restrictions, you can circle anywhere around the airport, at or above MDA as much as you like and as the WX allows, and as far as your protected radius for category again as WX allows.

Same with a visual maneuver to another runway: if circling minima happen to exist for you, then you know you have the same obstacle protections as you would if you were formally circling off of an approach....just as something to keep in mind. Barring any ATC restrictions, how you do it is on you indeed.



Agreed. As well as let them know sooner rather than later, if at all possible; but definitely let them know at anytime the inability is realized.


Listening to the verbiage on the tape, the instructions to the in-bounds was "Nxxxx, after TORBY, circle runway 1", so I believe that would make these approaches "formal circles off an instrument approach", which should then give one the confidence to fly the circle like one's flying a jet rather than a single engine prop. It would be easy to understand, however, how peer pressure and subtle "keep it tight" comments could overwhelm one's better angels.

The basic problem on almost any circling approach, especially when executed tightly is the almost inherent instability of the approach. Circling approaches are not necessarily inherently dangerous, but must almost always be flown differently than a straight in. The timing of configuration is the main difference, particularly in a Lear 35. You really, really don't want to drop full flaps until you are lined up on some kind of straight final segment. If you do elect to fully configure early and make the turn with full flaps, you need extra speed and nose down attitude all the way through the turn til you're close to level again. And you'd better be monitoring AOA. And that's in calm conditions. In shear/gusts of the type that day, it would be madness to attempt a fully configured circle to land in a 35. Hell, if it were me, the extra speed I'd be carrying would likely put me above full flap speed anyway. That said, in the heat of the fray, it would be mighty easy to fall into the trap.
 
After looking at that image I'm going to disagree, the airplane appears to have both wings. Not to mention the Lear wing is one piece, it's bolted to the bottom of the fuselage. Hard to imagine them stressing it hard enough to break it that close to landing, if my old brain recalls correctly it has 7 spars, not exactly flimsy.
8!!
 
interesting options http://opennav.jp/fikkusu/US/VINGS
http://atc-sim.com/-/control-tower-game

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Sorry but you've lost me. What I was getting at was why you quoted my post with that link. I click it, and it has a satellite pic of the location of that waypoint and a bunch of other random stuff. Not sure what that was supposed to mean...
 
Listening to the verbiage on the tape, the instructions to the in-bounds was "Nxxxx, after TORBY, circle runway 1", so I believe that would make these approaches "formal circles off an instrument approach", which should then give one the confidence to fly the circle like one's flying a jet rather than a single engine prop. It would be easy to understand, however, how peer pressure and subtle "keep it tight" comments could overwhelm one's better angels.

The basic problem on almost any circling approach, especially when executed tightly is the almost inherent instability of the approach. Circling approaches are not necessarily inherently dangerous, but must almost always be flown differently than a straight in. The timing of configuration is the main difference, particularly in a Lear 35. You really, really don't want to drop full flaps until you are lined up on some kind of straight final segment. If you do elect to fully configure early and make the turn with full flaps, you need extra speed and nose down attitude all the way through the turn til you're close to level again. And you'd better be monitoring AOA. And that's in calm conditions. In shear/gusts of the type that day, it would be madness to attempt a fully configured circle to land in a 35. Hell, if it were me, the extra speed I'd be carrying would likely put me above full flap speed anyway. That said, in the heat of the fray, it would be mighty easy to fall into the trap.

The usual procedure is that when you hit TORBY you turn right to a 090ish heading as a base for 01, and it sets you up for a nice 3 miles final. TORBY is just under 5 miles from the approach end of rwy 06. In this case, they waited til about 1 mile final for 06 and then yanked to what looked like a 140-160ish heading at 400-500', and we think they then tried to yank the other way for 01 at roughly 1/2 mile final and that's when they lost it.
 
Sorry but you've lost me. What I was getting at was why you quoted my post with that link. I click it, and it has a satellite pic of the location of that waypoint and a bunch of other random stuff. Not sure what that was supposed to mean...

To get a visual on the noted waypoints, this site provided
icon-globe.png
Latitude40° 42' 41.05" N
icon-globe.png
Longitude 74° 16' 6.82" W
 
Listening to the verbiage on the tape, the instructions to the in-bounds was "Nxxxx, after TORBY, circle runway 1", so I believe that would make these approaches "formal circles off an instrument approach", which should then give one the confidence to fly the circle like one's flying a jet rather than a single engine prop. It would be easy to understand, however, how peer pressure and subtle "keep it tight" comments could overwhelm one's better angels.

The basic problem on almost any circling approach, especially when executed tightly is the almost inherent instability of the approach. Circling approaches are not necessarily inherently dangerous, but must almost always be flown differently than a straight in. The timing of configuration is the main difference, particularly in a Lear 35. You really, really don't want to drop full flaps until you are lined up on some kind of straight final segment. If you do elect to fully configure early and make the turn with full flaps, you need extra speed and nose down attitude all the way through the turn til you're close to level again. And you'd better be monitoring AOA. And that's in calm conditions. In shear/gusts of the type that day, it would be madness to attempt a fully configured circle to land in a 35. Hell, if it were me, the extra speed I'd be carrying would likely put me above full flap speed anyway. That said, in the heat of the fray, it would be mighty easy to fall into the trap.

The usual procedure is that when you hit TORBY you turn right to a 090ish heading as a base for 01, and it sets you up for a nice 3 miles final. TORBY is just under 5 miles from the approach end of rwy 06. In this case, they waited til about 1 mile final for 06 and then yanked to what looked like a 140-160ish heading at 400-500', and we think they then tried to yank the other way for 01 at roughly 1/2 mile final and that's when they lost it.

I've only been in there a few times and haven't circled to 1 before. Are planes typically cleared for a visual approach, or cleared for the ILS 6 circle to 1?
 
As someone who for 10 years was a turboprop check airman, I would say the one thing that got people most often was circling. Whether in training, on checks, whatever. Had 'em not have any idea where they were going when they went visual, going for the wrong runway, not fully committing to memory the sight picture (layout), or unable to hold altitude or airspeed or all the above. Sometimes the missed got interesting too.

EDIT: I am not in anyway saying anything about this accident, just that it is one of the tougher things to get through on a ride.
 
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ILS circle. That's also what is advertised.

Hopefully I'm missing something then.

Torby is well outside of the protected area of the circle - by about a mile and a half for a category D aircraft.

If it's expected that planes hit torby and start the circle, TERPS is thrown out the window at that point. Granted, that day was vfr, but obstacles don't care what the ceiling is.
 
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