TEB crash 5/15/17

MoMatt said:
Hopefully I'm missing something then.

Torby is well outside of the protected area of the circle - by about a mile and a half for a category D aircraft.

If it's expected that planes hit torby and start the circle, TERPS is thrown out the window at that point. Granted, that day was vfr, but obstacles don't care what the ceiling is.
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You're asking the wrong guy about all that stuff. Not my area.
 
Itchy said:
As someone who for 10 years was a turboprop check airman, I would say the one thing that got people most often was circling. Whether in training, on checks, whatever. Had 'em not have any idea where they were going when they went visual, going for the wrong runway, not fully committing to memory the sight picture (layout), or unable to hold altitude or airspeed or all the above. Sometimes the missed got interesting too.

EDIT: I am not in anyway saying anything about this accident, just that it is one of the tougher things to get through on a ride.
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On circling, there is definitely a need for some mental prep/planning to be done before execution. Popping out from the gauges to now visual and maneuvering, is a transition that one has to be mentally prepared for in terms of where they are over the ground, where they need to go over he ground, how they're going to get there, and what they're going to do with the aircraft at what points configure-wise, etc. Not as much an issue when visually circling from having been VMC the whole time on the approach, but still has to be taken into account and planned for. One big gotcha it seems, is guys forgetting that very often, they're already below pattern altitude at circling mins, usually half of a standard 1500' jet traffic pattern. They will often use a 1500' pattern "sight picture", which gets them too close to the field, and they'll want to descend early, when the first descent should start usually around the base-final turn area, due to starting nearly half or so of what would be normal TPA. Those seem to be the more common general errors I've come across, and can be negated with just a little of the aforementioned preplanning to help create the proper mental mindset of where you are, where you need to be going or crossing over in order to have the proper pattern, and how to execute it. Helps keep one out of square corners that are just waiting for you to enter them..
 
Crop Duster said:
Listening to the verbiage on the tape, the instructions to the in-bounds was "Nxxxx, after TORBY, circle runway 1", so I believe that would make these approaches "formal circles off an instrument approach", which should then give one the confidence to fly the circle like one's flying a jet rather than a single engine prop. It would be easy to understand, however, how peer pressure and subtle "keep it tight" comments could overwhelm one's better angels.

The basic problem on almost any circling approach, especially when executed tightly is the almost inherent instability of the approach. Circling approaches are not necessarily inherently dangerous, but must almost always be flown differently than a straight in. The timing of configuration is the main difference, particularly in a Lear 35. You really, really don't want to drop full flaps until you are lined up on some kind of straight final segment. If you do elect to fully configure early and make the turn with full flaps, you need extra speed and nose down attitude all the way through the turn til you're close to level again. And you'd better be monitoring AOA. And that's in calm conditions. In shear/gusts of the type that day, it would be madness to attempt a fully configured circle to land in a 35. Hell, if it were me, the extra speed I'd be carrying would likely put me above full flap speed anyway. That said, in the heat of the fray, it would be mighty easy to fall into the trap.
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Agreed on all points. Not inherently dangerous, but do require some degree of mental preplanning, as you mention. Else the workload can increase quick to where one stops flying the plane, and instead the plane starts flying them, in terms of getting mentally behind.

And that's why I'm also wondering if the procedures at the field or ATC expectations during circling ops at TEB, will get a close look as to whether they're potentially a detriment to safe operation, or not.
 
MikeD said:
Agreed on all points. Not inherently dangerous, but do require some degree of mental preplanning, as you mention. Else the workload can increase quick to where one stops flying the plane, and instead the plane starts flying them, in terms of getting mentally behind.

And that's why I'm also wondering if the procedures at the field or ATC expectations during circling ops at TEB, will get a close look as to whether they're potentially a detriment to safe operation, or not.
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In my experience at TEB, you are landing 1 because of TEB winds obviously, but also due to the traffic flow at surrounding big airports. It's more of a "visual" maneuver and you're only on the ILS to keep everyone in line and sequenced. Especially because they are usually down to departing runway 1 at that point and it needs to be tight for efficiency. The place is a madhouse when it's one runway. Also a note, you can't circle before TORBY because your turn would put you in EWRs surface area. Basically they issue you that instruction to make sure you're in the TEB airspance and it makes you have a couple mile final if you turn right away. So it works, but I don't believe it's intended to be a by the book circling approach for the reasons that have been covered earlier. I even asked a TEB controller once on a tower tour, mentioning that it puts us outside Cat D circling mins and they didn't really know what to say. They said they didn't care(or know) and that it's always done(I think) in VMC. But you're definitely right, I think the Feds will be having a good look at the procedure. Also another note on the circles, the ILS 19 circle to 1 in TEB can have similar requests. I've been asked or told to turn base at TUGGZ which is 4.5 from the threshold of 19. Once again it's VMC and there is no problem seeing anything, probably on the approach just for sequencing etc.

Also I was in MDW on d and was on the RNAV 4R circle to 13C. Was asked to turn downwind before the circling mins and then asked to make a 3 mile base/final to let a departure out. Wx was severe clear just windy. Seems to me the airlines were doing the same thing and it's kind of standard ops. Since then I've always wondered what the rules were for stuff like that and if we were all doing something wrong/illegal, or since "hey it's VMC and I've got the runway environment in sight" I can basically do whatever and just fly a visual pattern with whatever restrictions I've been issued. No one seems to be able to answer that. Been a while and maybe the tower asked if I had that runway in sight or something and then they would issue the other instructions. Trying to remember the specifics of those approaches... Anyway it's a good discussion to have.
 
sweeps said:
In my experience at TEB, you are landing 1 because of TEB winds obviously, but also due to the traffic flow at surrounding big airports. It's more of a "visual" maneuver and you're only on the ILS to keep everyone in line and sequenced. Especially because they are usually down to departing runway 1 at that point and it needs to be tight for efficiency. The place is a madhouse when it's one runway. Also a note, you can't circle before TORBY because your turn would put you in EWRs surface area. Basically they issue you that instruction to make sure you're in the TEB airspance and it makes you have a couple mile final if you turn right away. So it works, but I don't believe it's intended to be a by the book circling approach for the reasons that have been covered earlier. I even asked a TEB controller once on a tower tour, mentioning that it puts us outside Cat D circling mins and they didn't really know what to say. They said they didn't care(or know) and that it's always done(I think) in VMC. But you're definitely right, I think the Feds will be having a good look at the procedure. Also another note on the circles, the ILS 19 circle to 1 in TEB can have similar requests. I've been asked or told to turn base at TUGGZ which is 4.5 from the threshold of 19. Once again it's VMC and there is no problem seeing anything, probably on the approach just for sequencing etc.

Also I was in MDW on d and was on the RNAV 4R circle to 13C. Was asked to turn downwind before the circling mins and then asked to make a 3 mile base/final to let a departure out. Wx was severe clear just windy. Seems to me the airlines were doing the same thing and it's kind of standard ops. Since then I've always wondered what the rules were for stuff like that and if we were all doing something wrong/illegal, or since "hey it's VMC and I've got the runway environment in sight" I can basically do whatever and just fly a visual pattern with whatever restrictions I've been issued. No one seems to be able to answer that. Been a while and maybe the tower asked if I had that runway in sight or something and then they would issue the other instructions. Trying to remember the specifics of those approaches... Anyway it's a good discussion to have.
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Very interesting information, thank you for sharing that. I agree it's a good discussion to have, because you know as well as I do that oftentimes things get lost in the shuffle of "we've always been doing it that way", and safety can potentially get overlooked. Whether the requests or procedures themselves are adequate for faster jet traffic is definitely worth a look. Or even whether an airspace modification or even some kind of LOA to allow a certain specific distance to be able to coordinate (maybe at certain times of day, or traffic permitting, or whatever) aircraft passing through edges of EWRs surface area to allow more circling airspace and not such a tight area. Just thinking out loud, but I'm certain those kinds of things will, and should, be reviewed with a fine toothed comb.
 
sweeps said:
In my experience at TEB, you are landing 1 because of TEB winds obviously, but also due to the traffic flow at surrounding big airports. It's more of a "visual" maneuver and you're only on the ILS to keep everyone in line and sequenced. Especially because they are usually down to departing runway 1 at that point and it needs to be tight for efficiency. The place is a madhouse when it's one runway. Also a note, you can't circle before TORBY because your turn would put you in EWRs surface area. Basically they issue you that instruction to make sure you're in the TEB airspance and it makes you have a couple mile final if you turn right away. So it works, but I don't believe it's intended to be a by the book circling approach for the reasons that have been covered earlier. I even asked a TEB controller once on a tower tour, mentioning that it puts us outside Cat D circling mins and they didn't really know what to say. They said they didn't care(or know) and that it's always done(I think) in VMC. But you're definitely right, I think the Feds will be having a good look at the procedure. Also another note on the circles, the ILS 19 circle to 1 in TEB can have similar requests. I've been asked or told to turn base at TUGGZ which is 4.5 from the threshold of 19. Once again it's VMC and there is no problem seeing anything, probably on the approach just for sequencing etc.

Also I was in MDW on d and was on the RNAV 4R circle to 13C. Was asked to turn downwind before the circling mins and then asked to make a 3 mile base/final to let a departure out. Wx was severe clear just windy. Seems to me the airlines were doing the same thing and it's kind of standard ops. Since then I've always wondered what the rules were for stuff like that and if we were all doing something wrong/illegal, or since "hey it's VMC and I've got the runway environment in sight" I can basically do whatever and just fly a visual pattern with whatever restrictions I've been issued. No one seems to be able to answer that. Been a while and maybe the tower asked if I had that runway in sight or something and then they would issue the other instructions. Trying to remember the specifics of those approaches... Anyway it's a good discussion to have.
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Very interesting discussion and I agree it's good to think about these things. From a controller's standpoint, it seems the answer is "don't know, don't care" as far as flying a circle outside the protected area. And why should they if planes are doing what they should.

From a pilot's standpoint, and as Mike said, "we've always done it that way" and the typical type A mentality of a professional pilot to accomplish a task leads to an accepted, uncharted visual approach without a clearance.

Keep in mind I'm not saying anything about this is unsafe necessarily - probably thousands of jets have done this without incident and it sounds like it only happens in good vmc most of the time. And the self-preservation instinct of pilot's hasn't caused an uproar about it, so it's probably perfectly safe and keeps you well clear of obstacles when done as described (turn at Torby).

But I agree that it should get a closer inspection and that both maneuvers - 6 circle 1 and 19 circle 24 - deserve a charter visual procedure.
 
Reqlly what they need to do is close some of these damn airports lol. The reason we do ILS 19 circle 24 as well rather than straight in is because for straight in 24 our airspace gets super tight in that corner. We then have to start watching for LGA and HPN traffic. Whenever I can when it's ILS 19 circle 24 I just send people direct TUGGZ for a visual 24 on a modified downwind. But yes both these circles are always done in VMC. I think per our LOA with TEB the ceiling has to be at least 2500' or something like, but I'd have to look that up.
 
I have flown the ILS 6, Circle to 1 many times. It's one you just have to stay alert and fly the plane. The winds were nasty, but not intolerable for the approach, circle, or landing. How many others had done it that day?

Judging by the radio call from the tower, as to when they were going to make their turn, I would guess they were a bit inside of TORBY and tried to crank it around to save the approach, and maybe all eyes were outside the cockpit.

I don't think hitting the building (if they did) had much effect on how the end result occurred. IMHO.

RIP fellows and thoughts for their families.

Regards,

OBD
 
I just getting up to date on all the posts here.

He was 800' high at DANDY, which meant he had 2.2 miles to lose 1,000' to be at TORBY at 1,500. (idle power at the very least)

I further saw that they did not initiate the turn for the circle until they were on a 1 mile final to 6, and actually had to turn SE to get situated.

They were really out of shape for the landing, beginning at DANDY and probably should have gone around. IMHO

Regards,

OBD
 
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It's been a number of years since I worked on a LR35, I seem to recall a CVR mic in the cockpit. Maybe the recordings, if they exist, will shed some light.
 
According to the NTSB brief, it did have a CVR and it was recovered. They don't know yet if it was readable. Will post if I hear/see anything.
 
Me when they tell me to circle
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I'm flown PHL-TEB in a few airframes now and can say that it's a busy flight. It takes a lot of preplanning to get everything done in a reasonable amount of time. I can see being task saturated while doing an approach that requires a lot of attention to detail, forgetting to initiate the circle, and both guys heads up while circling. Maybe forgetting to power up while the speed slowly begins to bleed off. I don't know the stall warning system in the Lear and how much advanced warning it gives you.
 
A great article from Eddie concerning circling at TEB along with some general stuff on circling approaches, visual approaches, and stabilized criteria.

http://code7700.com/kteb_circling_conundrum.htm

Just about everyone these days preaches the need for a stable approach and just about everyone defines a stable approach as being on speed, on glide path, on centerline no later than 500 feet above the runway. Also specified in many manuals is that you must be in this position configured and in a landing attitude. (If you are on the extended centerline at 60° of bank you aren't stable.) But what is lost on many people is that doing this off a 3° glide path takes distance, 1.57 nm to be exact.
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Richman said:
Haha, circling approaches and stabilized approaches in the same sentence...

Lolz.
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Can be done, depending on circling area, technique used, etc. Stabilized can be wings level, or
curvilinear.

Of course, it can be completely screwed up too. I've managed to do both nice circlings and messed up ones. Confirms that there's a reason common errors are common :)
 
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