Tbm 700 pic

[mshunter]

I gotcha,
But just to pick nits, if they're hanging by a thread, they should sell the plane

And not hire a new pilot.

Wow. How can you possibly disregard the current market conditions??? It always seems that when I read post like this it really shows the lack of understanding of what it takes to own and operate a business. It makes absolutely NO difference how much money, effort, sacrifice or whatever it took to earn our credentials for a job. It was your/our choice. Nobody asked any of us to 'sacrifice our kids tuition' or spend $80K on training, etc. Nobody forced any of us to choose this career path, and to insist that its somehow justifiable to demand a 'fair' wage, even when the company is potentially hanging by a thread in some cases is crazy. Consider yourself extremely fortunate in these 'current market conditions' to have a job at all.

The great thing about living in this country is that if you don't like your job circumstances, you can get a new job; in a totally different industry that pays better perhaps. We're not forced to do anything. Sometime we take too much for granted in this country. We are EXTREMELY lucky to have the opportunity to pursue this career path at all. I got into this industry knowing the pay sucks, the QOL sucks and is extremely volatile. I considered all of that and still decide to do it. Anyway, just my perspective. Not intended to throw darts at anyone.

I don't think you are seeing my point. Hard work should pay off. I am not asking to get rich. I am asking for a fair wage for a fair amount of commitment. And for people to say that "pay sucks, QOL sucks and is extremely volatile" isn't wrong, but isn't right either. You have the same chance of loosing your job with aviation as you do with just about any other industry. Two quick examples. Courtesy Chevrolet just shut their doors, out of business in a slow economy. My wifes company, a bankruptcy attorney's office just laid off 12 of 31 employees (thankfully she wasn't one of them). I would rather be let go, and search for a new job, than have to eat dirt because times are tough. If I don't make it, then thats my fault, and on to my backup. But if I am going to sacrifice everything I have worked so hard for to be in this industry, I expect it to pay off, at least in the long run. And starting at a new company making $30k a year to drive a Pilatus, I could make more as a bus driver, the greyhound type. Now if the company has the money to own the airplane, they probably have enough money to pay better than $30k a year. I applicate the fact that people post the jobs here, but don't forget to negotiate pay either. And what special training did that take, how many years of college, how many years of instructing to build your hours. Do you see my pint, now that I'm not ranting and raving?

On a final note. The pay, QOL and volatility doesn't have to suck if you don't let it. You will get out of it what you put into it. When I worked for the auto dealers as a wrench, if I wasn't happy with where I was, either due to pay, QOL, or whatever, I did something to change it. The last dealership I was at, I managed to get EVERYONE in the shop a $1.50 an hour raise. We all stuck together, and forced the OWNER to pay us what we were worth. It was a simple matter of doing some research, and presenting it to the srvc. manager and owner. Some of us were replaceable, some of us weren't ( I thankfully with my certs was going to be very hard to replace). Apply pressure at the right location, with the right info and you may be surprised what you can do.

 

[wheelsup]

I don't think you are seeing my point. Hard work should pay off. I am not asking to get rich. I am asking for a fair wage for a fair amount of commitment.

I'm just as frustrated as you, I started a thread about this a few days ago in the general topics, unfortunately I've come to the realization that what you spend on your education isn't a qualifier for what you earn out in the "real world".

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

I'm just as frustrated as you, I started a thread about this a few days ago in the general topics, unfortunately I've come to the realization that what you spend on your education isn't a qualifier for what you earn out in the "real world".

Well its not in Aviation, thats the whole problem. Compare someone that went to an Ivy League school first someone that went to a community college.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

Actually I'd say he comes across as angry at the world!

That could be caused by the apparent thought patterns associated with being mad at your peers for having opportunities/ or motivation.
It goes hand in hand with a distorted sense of reality, and in many cases is associated with actually believing that oneself is the only one truly diserving to be fairly compensated. What they are actually mad about is not the fact that there are jobs that are not paying the right amount of money for them it's the fact that they realize that the positions will be filled. If not by them, then by someone else. I truly understand the anger and disappointment, I just don't think it does much.

Unless we turn this profession around and start to take charge, nothing will happen. Until then APC's looser section is the best place to go:
Brainwash for free, right here:

http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/leaving-career/

Like DE727UPS tends to say:
"To each their own"

If I wanted to raise cattle in Montana, I would go raise cattle in Montana.

Cheers,

 

[mshunter]

I'm just as frustrated as you, I started a thread about this a few days ago in the general topics, unfortunately I've come to the realization that what you spend on your education isn't a qualifier for what you earn out in the "real world".

Again, I don't think you understand my point. I wholly understand yours, I think. But I don't consider the amount of money being spent as a qualifier. I consider the amount of determination, and sacrifice, and time away from family, etc. the qualifier. Some of us have come into aviation, with very little investment. But the amount of time invested in making it into a career, should allow for a more lucrative business. And unfortunately, some place's will continue to hire pilots who have 500 hrs., to be SIC of a CRJ for $19k a year. I for one, have a family to support, so the whole "I have mouths to feed" doesn't boad well with me. This is the number one reason why I don't take jobs like this. I have a job, I am a flight instructor, and I make a decent wage, at a busy school (even in this economy, I get about 1 new student a week). So, I am thankful I am still working. But if I was out of work, I still wouldn't take a position where I had to make tough decisions about the safety of others, with pressure to get them there, for $30k a year. But If thats someone else's peragotive, then so be it. I can't single handedly change this industry. Thats why we have to stick together as a group, and see that this is not O.K. for us to sell ourselves short. Even in these tough times. If it's still not gonna get the bills paid, then why bother. Go to the backup.

 

[wrxpilot]

If it's still not gonna get the bills paid, then why bother. Go to the backup.

Absolutely... New guys, take note - this is why you get a degree in something non-aviation related.

 

[Douglas]

Hey, I have been averaging a little over $1,000/month.....not moving on.

Those of you that are not paying the bills as I have read in the past, take you own advice and don't let the door hit you on your way out.

 

[SIUav8er]

What if it only has you flying 15-30 hours a month?

even worse. reason being you're probably on call quite a bit. so now youre in a position that requires you to be available, youre not getting very much flight time, AND your making poverty wages.

 

[mshunter]

Hey, I have been averaging a little over $1,000/month.....not moving on.

Those of you that are not paying the bills as I have read in the past, take you own advice and don't let the door hit you on your way out.

I am at about $2000 a month(take home). Good thing my wife makes decent money. BUT, I am instructing, and know this is part of "paying your dues." So I don't expect to make very much. And with the way things are going, I'll probably be(or at least hope to be) makeing $3000 a month within another 2 or 3 months. Even in this economy, my little FBO is picking up new students all the time. So why would I take a pay cut to move up in the world, I thought that was the whole point of moving up, to get bigger and better? Not bigger and worse.

 

[Zero1Niner]

And not hire a new pilot.
I don't think you are seeing my point. Hard work should pay off. I am not asking to get rich. I am asking for a fair wage for a fair amount of commitment. And for people to say that "pay sucks, QOL sucks and is extremely volatile" isn't wrong, but isn't right either. You have the same chance of loosing your job with aviation as you do with just about any other industry. Two quick examples. Courtesy Chevrolet just shut their doors, out of business in a slow economy. My wifes company, a bankruptcy attorney's office just laid off 12 of 31 employees (thankfully she wasn't one of them). I would rather be let go, and search for a new job, than have to eat dirt because times are tough. If I don't make it, then thats my fault, and on to my backup. But if I am going to sacrifice everything I have worked so hard for to be in this industry, I expect it to pay off, at least in the long run. And starting at a new company making $30k a year to drive a Pilatus, I could make more as a bus driver, the greyhound type. Now if the company has the money to own the airplane, they probably have enough money to pay better than $30k a year. I applicate the fact that people post the jobs here, but don't forget to negotiate pay either. And what special training did that take, how many years of college, how many years of instructing to build your hours. Do you see my pint, now that I'm not ranting and raving?

On a final note. The pay, QOL and volatility doesn't have to suck if you don't let it. You will get out of it what you put into it. When I worked for the auto dealers as a wrench, if I wasn't happy with where I was, either due to pay, QOL, or whatever, I did something to change it. The last dealership I was at, I managed to get EVERYONE in the shop a $1.50 an hour raise. We all stuck together, and forced the OWNER to pay us what we were worth. It was a simple matter of doing some research, and presenting it to the srvc. manager and owner. Some of us were replaceable, some of us weren't ( I thankfully with my certs was going to be very hard to replace). Apply pressure at the right location, with the right info and you may be surprised what you can do.

mshunter,

Thanks for the reply. I completely understand your position, I just dont agree with it. Please understand, I mean no disrespect by any of my comments.

There are no guarantees in this world. Everything is driven by supply and demand. The Chevy dealer closed because people are not buying cars (at least not Chevy's). One would have to assume the attorneys office laid off the workers because business is down...much less likely because the owner(s) are trying to fatten their pockets more. This 'force the owner' mindset is the main part that I disagree with. I have owned businesses. The idea of someone trying to 'force' me to do something in MY business, that I took ALL of the risk in starting, all of the sleepless nights trying to figure out how to make payroll and pay the bills, the countless months that I went without a paycheck just to keep the business alive so the employees would have a job to come back to, just doesn't make sense to me. You mentioned that you would rather be let go instead of having to take a pay cut in tough times...I just don't get it. I, for one, would MUCH rather have the option of taking the pay cut, scraping by for a while, but still having a job to go to. When I say the option, I mean you always can leave and find something else if you choose. No one has a gun to you head saying you have to do this.

I agree that in a more idealistic world, one would expect their investment in whatever direction or path they chose (training cost, college, etc) to pay off somehow. That would be great...its just not the way it is. EXPECTING something to pay off, simply because you chose to play in this sandbox just doesn't seem realistic to me. Who will guarantee the business owner that his business will succeed and that he will get a return on his investment? The same business that he dumped his life savings into, mortgaged his house, personally signed for lines of credit, etc. to get off the ground? No one. He has no guarantee at all. And should he sell the plane if he cant afford to pay someone $60K/year with great benefits? Seems like that is the owners decision. If someone else is willing to do the job for $30K, should the owner not allow that? Would you pay 50% more for the Chevy car from the local dealer, just to support him? I wouldn't.

Anyway, just a different perspective.

 

[riccochet]

err, quoting on my own post. didnt finish previous post.
when i said the airline bunch complained the most, i meant because of furloughs. until recently the airlines were the typical furlough'ers now its freight too.......
ote=riccochet;1088494]people who got into the aviation business for the right reasons, those being alot of heart & the pure love of flying, people only capable of tolerating making a living doing something they love, will make it here. those who joined up for the status and moolah probably wont, unless they are the select few who walk on everyone & seem to just have everything fall in their laps.
not everything is about money. but, something that is worth anything requires sacrifice, perseverance & determination.
aviation is a very fickle industry with lotsa ups n downs & relies so much on economy.
aviation is a rich mans game but the poor can succeed in it.
my family was dirt poor, i never went to college & my only career backup comes from 10 years of FBO experience.
i struggled to make my way to the alaskan bush by delivering pizza, working fbos and taking any odd flying job i could get.
i feel privelaged to be here and loved the journey as much as the destination.
it always seems to be the airline bunch that complain so much.[/quote]

 

[MFT1Air]

It's this attitude that got us in this situation in the first place. If I could do it, I'd turn the tables on employers. But It would take a collective act to do it. People like you are not helping the cause! Working for pennies has made this industry turn into basically this----Aviation employers=Pimps, Pilots=#####s. I refuse to be a #####. My mentor is a chief pilot, and if a guy comes in and dosen't try to negoatite pay, he won't get the job. Even if it is someone with higher quals than the next guy in line. It shows something called integrity. Try some on for size!

One could argue equally that YOUR viewpoint lacks substance and experience and is predicated on nostalgia and rhetoric. The position should fill quickly ya think given the fact many SICs for regionals can transition over to this position and INCREASE their pay substantially. You going to say they are part of the problem as well for wishing a pay increase?

Someone's going to take this job as either a pay cut or a pay increase. That's a fact. It's not disrespectful to anyone; it's simply an end to a means and again, it's a fact of life. To editorialize negatively about it is simply a good indicator of a social/economically naive individual.

My take. . .

 

[MFT1Air]

If I lose my flying job, I'm going to look for another one that is in line with appropriate pay standards for that position. I'll also look at using my backup degree to get a job outside aviation if necessary. I'm not going to cave in to somebody taking advantage of the crappy hiring environment though.

I don't believe you'll be as successful as you would like to be. A specialty skill such as aviation is one of a few jobs where experience matters. I'm curious just how many pilots ever thought about "the real world" and what it takes to attain a high paying job?

Any ever thought to try out the job market outside of aviation to see what they are really worth to anyone other than the "legends in their own minds?" I mean really. . .run a hypothetical whereby you lose your physical or you're incapacitated. . .what's your plan B?

 

[Zero1Niner]

err, quoting on my own post. didnt finish previous post.
when i said the airline bunch complained the most, i meant because of furloughs. until recently the airlines were the typical furlough'ers now its freight too.......
ote=riccochet;1088494]people who got into the aviation business for the right reasons, those being alot of heart & the pure love of flying, people only capable of tolerating making a living doing something they love, will make it here. those who joined up for the status and moolah probably wont, unless they are the select few who walk on everyone & seem to just have everything fall in their laps.
not everything is about money. but, something that is worth anything requires sacrifice, perseverance & determination.
aviation is a very fickle industry with lotsa ups n downs & relies so much on economy.
aviation is a rich mans game but the poor can succeed in it.
my family was dirt poor, i never went to college & my only career backup comes from 10 years of FBO experience.
i struggled to make my way to the alaskan bush by delivering pizza, working fbos and taking any odd flying job i could get.
i feel privelaged to be here and loved the journey as much as the destination.
it always seems to be the airline bunch that complain so much.

[/quote]

Great attitude. :yeahthat:

 

[Zero1Niner]

To editorialize negatively about it is simply a good indicator of a social/economically naive individual.

My take. . .

Word.

 

[riccochet]

1st of all i mean no offense & appreiate anyone who has heart desire and a willingness to work hard for what they want.
part of the reason we're experiencing this [low pay] in the 1st place is because big headed airline pilot wanna be's with 500 hours get a job as an FO with an airline desperately seeking someone to fill the right seat. that airline puts alot of time and money into that pilots training only to see that impatient inexperienced undeserving pilot leave early on before the investment put into them is met & that is perpetual.
2nd, aviation is incredibly expensive in all facets. The FAA continuously puts higher demands on 121 & 135 ops costing 100's of thousands of $'s. Recurrent training, maintenance, AD's, reurring AD's, fuel, oil and on and on and on! Just starting a 135 op with one small plane is 10's of thousands of $'s in just paperwork and fees to the FAA.
So, companies pass these high expenses onto customers and low pay to pilots and employees (especially high turnover)! Its a viscious circle!
It has nothing to do with pilots flying for pennies! Such friggin BS! There are companies out there that pay good, i work for one. & i've worked for others who payed good but couldnt meet their overhead and went bankrupt!
Most pilots arent payed enuff for what they do. but, i love what i do and feel privelaged to get payed for it therefor i am willing to sacrafice for having that privelage of doing what i dreamed of as a kid!
you wanna make $150 grand flying? go to the middle east and do it tax free with hazard pay! Dodging missiles and beheadings! a friend of mine just got on flying a 727 over there, theyre hiring!
i made my way the only way i knew how without any help or financial aid and i'm not gonna be bashed for my years of hard work & never giving up or wining, getting where i finally got.

One could argue equally that YOUR viewpoint lacks substance and experience and is predicated on nostalgia and rhetoric. The position should fill quickly ya think given the fact many SICs for regionals can transition over to this position and INCREASE their pay substantially. You going to say they are part of the problem as well for wishing a pay increase?

Someone's going to take this job as either a pay cut or a pay increase. That's a fact. It's not disrespectful to anyone; it's simply an end to a means and again, it's a fact of life. To editorialize negatively about it is simply a good indicator of a social/economically naive individual.

My take. . .

 

[riccochet]

doubt if it is SIC, not in a TBM. it is the fastest single t-prop in the world though. nice nice nice plane though. i dont think 30 k is too weak for that job if it has bennies.

Yeah, I'm wondering if they meant SIC...who knows. $30K is weak for a PIC position.

 

[Cessna414JJB]

There used to be a time when one made it to the FE seat, or maybe even the FO seat after having spent years and years at low wages, flying everything from banners to agricultural airplanes, charter, freight or else. I remember clearly my uncle telling me one day that he had some 3000 hours before an airline would even talk to him.

There used to be a time when flying a tailwheel airplane was not considered dangerous, when a twin engine airplane was considered a airplane with two engines and not a gold mine for insurance companies.
It never took special skills to fly a tailwheel airplane or a multi, it still does not. They are just airplanes.

I believe the industry is not really to blame for what has happened.
My thought is that at some point in time, someone realized that GA did not provide the right attitudes for the cockpit anymore, how much easier would it be to sponsor a academy to produce pilots geared for the airlines? For decades people spent years in GA before moving on...

The problem seems to be that the production of low time academy pilots was geared towards removing all fair negotiation from the hiring process. Organizations like ATP had the CFI program, some of their guys and gals went on to instruct a whole month before being planted in a jet.
Then the airlines got desperate enough to accept "circumnavigating" the CFI thingy too, the result was a 250-300 hour pilot pool being available.
They are in debt, and the airlines go and train them. Contributing to this thing is the fact that a CRJ is in fact a highly automated box. Truly, the guy in the right seat is there because the regulations say that the seat must be occupied. "We give you a shot at this, just do as you are told and you'll be fine. How about 20K to start?" You won't hear anything than YES from anyone with that amount of debt at that age.

Nowadays the money people pay obviously entitles them to something. This is clearly shown through the "preferred hiring and bridge programs, which supposedly create better airline skills" It's a club setting. Someone drops the money, and all is taken care off. Someone else does not, would be the better stick, have a better personality for this job, and would not take everything for granted, but never has a realistic shot.
Instant gratification anyone? Do Doctors start at 300K/ year? Do Lawyers make 500K/Year in their first year? No, it takes time, dedication, skill, knowledge, reputation and lots of motivation. Heck it takes me motivation everyday not to cut up 20 years in Aviation and all my expensive certs, when everything looks dark. But "Learning years are not bossing years". There will be furloughs, setbacks and periods of unemployment. There are rewards, but we have to stick to it to even see them. I try to stick to it.

Is it ATP's fault? No! They did nothing but to capitalize on peoples dreams. There you have a customer who is ready to "drop the dime at hello" for this dreamjob. No research, no questions, just a dream of being a well paid Airline Captain someday. Scully Hero helps this a lot. Even though he never worked for the peanuts his peers work for today.

Newcomers, 80.000 dollars later, with the worldwide economy in the gutter, whine and moan about all the nice money that was wasted. "Oh this bad industry cheated me out of my money..."

All the madness and anger, whining and complaining goes only so far in my book. What gives people the right to proclaim that the system needs to change? The system CANNOT change before the people and attitudes in it change.

If ATP advertised the reality, that in fact it takes years to make a respectable wage, and a decent schedule and that there is more to being an airline pilot than chewing gum and listening to an ipod, would they continue to crank out as many cookies as they do? They portray a dream, but no one doing it tells the kiddos signing up today about the reality.

Experience, dedication and integrity must be valued higher as they are right now. That takes people. The effort must come from within, with a new approach to our own profession. It is ours afterall.

So, when I look at a TBM700 PIC job that pays 30K and possibly some benefits, I don't really see the big deal. Someone will take the seat, no matter what I think, or you, or anyone else. The seat would not go empty if they paid nothing at all. It's a nice plane and if you accidentally start working for nice people, the airlines look a whole lot darker than sitting in this thing.

Good Luck!

 

[riccochet]

C-414JJB, WOW!!!! :yeahthat: that thread should be required reading for every new student pilot & any pilot expecting to circumnavigate "paying their dues". Unbelievably well said!!! Bravo, Bravo!!!

There used to be a time when one made it to the FE seat, or maybe even the FO seat after having spent years and years at low wages, flying everything from banners to agricultural airplanes, charter, freight or else. I remember clearly my uncle telling me one day that he had some 3000 hours before an airline would even talk to him.

There used to be a time when flying a tailwheel airplane was not considered dangerous, when a twin engine airplane was considered a airplane with two engines and not a gold mine for insurance companies.
It never took special skills to fly a tailwheel airplane or a multi, it still does not. They are just airplanes.

I believe the industry is not really to blame for what has happened.
My thought is that at some point in time, someone realized that GA did not provide the right attitudes for the cockpit anymore, how much easier would it be to sponsor a academy to produce pilots geared for the airlines? For decades people spent years in GA before moving on...

The problem seems to be that the production of low time academy pilots was geared towards removing all fair negotiation from the hiring process. Organizations like ATP had the CFI program, some of their guys and gals went on to instruct a whole month before being planted in a jet.
Then the airlines got desperate enough to accept "circumnavigating" the CFI thingy too, the result was a 250-300 hour pilot pool being available.
They are in debt, and the airlines go and train them. Contributing to this thing is the fact that a CRJ is in fact a highly automated box. Truly, the guy in the right seat is there because the regulations say that the seat must be occupied. "We give you a shot at this, just do as you are told and you'll be fine. How about 20K to start?" You won't hear anything than YES from anyone with that amount of debt at that age.

Nowadays the money people pay obviously entitles them to something. This is clearly shown through the "preferred hiring and bridge programs, which supposedly create better airline skills" It's a club setting. Someone drops the money, and all is taken care off. Someone else does not, would be the better stick, have a better personality for this job, and would not take everything for granted, but never has a realistic shot.
Instant gratification anyone? Do Doctors start at 300K/ year? Do Lawyers make 500K/Year in their first year? No, it takes time, dedication, skill, knowledge, reputation and lots of motivation. Heck it takes me motivation everyday not to cut up 20 years in Aviation and all my expensive certs, when everything looks dark. But "Learning years are not bossing years". There will be furloughs, setbacks and periods of unemployment. There are rewards, but we have to stick to it to even see them. I try to stick to it.

Is it ATP's fault? No! They did nothing but to capitalize on peoples dreams. There you have a customer who is ready to "drop the dime at hello" for this dreamjob. No research, no questions, just a dream of being a well paid Airline Captain someday. Scully Hero helps this a lot. Even though he never worked for the peanuts his peers work for today.

Newcomers, 80.000 dollars later, with the worldwide economy in the gutter, whine and moan about all the nice money that was wasted. "Oh this bad industry cheated me out of my money..."

All the madness and anger, whining and complaining goes only so far in my book. What gives people the right to proclaim that the system needs to change? The system CANNOT change before the people and attitudes in it change.

If ATP advertised the reality, that in fact it takes years to make a respectable wage, and a decent schedule and that there is more to being an airline pilot than chewing gum and listening to an ipod, would they continue to crank out as many cookies as they do? They portray a dream, but no one doing it tells the kiddos signing up today about the reality.

Experience, dedication and integrity must be valued higher as they are right now. That takes people. The effort must come from within, with a new approach to our own profession. It is ours afterall.

So, when I look at a TBM700 PIC job that pays 30K and possibly some benefits, I don't really see the big deal. Someone will take the seat, no matter what I think, or you, or anyone else. The seat would not go empty if they paid nothing at all. It's a nice plane and if you accidentally start working for nice people, the airlines look a whole lot darker than sitting in this thing.

Good Luck!

 

[HVYMETALDRVR]

No one here is saying we should all automatically be entitled to 100K or 75K a year initially, we all have to work our way up... But 19-20K?, living in a bad neighborhood?, barely able to afford car insurance? groceries? gas?, and these are just the essentials, nevermind fun or vacation... and I'm single...

It doesn't matter how automated the airplane is (assuming your flying something with a jet) pilots still bear a great deal of responsibility. They have the lives of xxx number of people behind them, plus whether university educated or not they didn't get to where their at by taking a two week orientation course (which is basically what bartenders can take and can easily double a first year FO pay).

On top of that all that money you invested goes into your tickets which are solely based on the validity of a medical certificate, which can dissappear MUCH quicker than most people think (Any one over 50 plus can vouch for how hard it is to keep a first class). Any kind of slip and fall concussion? the medical is now in jeopardy... nevermind a car accident or fall down drunk outside of the bar. Also, Take three people who get drunk at the bar one night (1 pilot 1 lawyer 1 doctor) all three get a DUI guess who's job is in jeopardy the next day? Given this is a personal choice but the point is a pilot is always a pilot, even when he's not flying.

Once again we are professionals and I feel that pilots should be treated and paid as such. Plus why not do what you love and get paid well at the same time? You guys are right that money isn't everything, but neither is poverty!