Stop the Whipsaw

[WacoFan]

Im fuzzy on it, but I thought they had a mostly first-class config. I do know that they baked their own chocolate chip cookies onboard.....a staple of their service. They had flights to PHX, which is the only reason I know about them.

One class, excellent service, warm chocolate chip cookies. Flew them a ton. There was a price differential but I'm not sure how much as I never comparison shopped - if I was going somewhere they went, that's who I flew without exception, no matter the cost. I loved them.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Do the words "unlawful concerted action" mean anything to anyone here?

 

[TripSix]

Good grief... a surcharge on ticket prices just to make sure the pilots don't have to eat Ramen for a month.

Actually, with the way things are going, I wouldn't be surprised to see it happen. I would be even less surprised to see most of the "mouthbreathers" opt out of paying that surcharge. "Wut? Pay the pilots better? Screw that. Get me mah peanuts!"

Like you, I am the opposite of airline loyal. I have, and will continue to, pay higher prices for tickets to avoid a particular airline.

I'd be more than happy to opt-in, or even pay a crew surcharge for a ticket. Problem is - you, the crew, would probably never see that money from your company. And if by chance they did give it to you, they'd probably cut your wages before-hand since now you get "tips."

 

[derg]

Ungh.

The better paid the customer, often, the worse they tip. I'll bet you I'd make more, on average, from a coach passenger than I would from first class.

 

[MikeD]

Ungh.

The better paid the customer, often, the worse they tip. I'll bet you I'd make more, on average, from a coach passenger than I would from first class.

Same in nearly everywhere......the richer the person, generally the cheaper they seem to be when it comes to things like tips.

 

[derg]

Same in nearly everywhere......the richer the person, generally the cheaper they seem to be when it comes to things like tips.

Go to any north Scottsdale wine bar, like tonight, and you'll find people with the "I'll bet she loves bartending at this wine bar, I'll leave her a straight 10% because, well, at least she's getting SOMETHING".

 

[m77y]

http://www.mesapilots.com/documents/7-31-13ChairmanUpdate.pdf

Only info I could find on the teleconference.

 

[SeanD]

Ungh.

The better paid the customer, often, the worse they tip. I'll bet you I'd make more, on average, from a coach passenger than I would from first class.

Fun Fact: Of my 4 years of bartending experience the best tippers were gay men. No, its not my rugged good looks. Every bartender I know agrees. Gay men tip very well regardless of the drink cost or gender of the bartender. I agree with this statement though. Ive watched countless times where people pull out rolls of cash and decide to just get rid of that pesky change at the bottom of their pockets or purses or not tip at all.

 

[Binet-Simon]

Do the words "unlawful concerted action" mean anything to anyone here?

The National Labor Relations Act gives non-supervisory employees the right to self-organize; to form, join, or assist labor organizations; to bargain collectively through their own representatives; and to engage in a “concerted activity” for collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection.

 

[mikecweb]

I'm down with the cause but forgive me if I think this:http://forums.jetcareers.com/threads/our-careers-could-hang-in-the-balance.180747/ is about 300x more important for our profession.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The National Labor Relations Act gives non-supervisory employees the right to self-organize; to form, join, or assist labor organizations; to bargain collectively through their own representatives; and to engage in a “concerted activity” for collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection.

Oooh, where to start. The National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) doesn't apply to pilots. Pilots (and railroad workers) fall under the Railway Labor Act (RLA). The two laws are very different, although some portions of the NLRA have been ported to the RLA side of the law by courts and arbitrators. But when it comes to concerted action, the RLA is far more restrictive. You can't take any sort of concerted action to harm the company unless you're first released to do so by the National Mediation Board (NMB). And they're only authorized to give a release after the bargaining and mediation processes have reached an impasse. And only they can determine when an impasse has actually been reached.

The whole process usually takes years.

 

[z987k]

Oooh, where to start. The National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) doesn't apply to pilots. Pilots (and railroad workers) fall under the Railway Labor Act (RLA). The two laws are very different, although some portions of the NLRA have been ported to the RLA side of the law by courts and arbitrators. But when it comes to concerted action, the RLA is far more restrictive. You can't take any sort of concerted action to harm the company unless you're first released to do so by the National Mediation Board (NMB). And they're only authorized to give a release after the bargaining and mediation processes have reached an impasse. And only they can determine when an impasse has actually been reached.

The whole process usually takes years.

Can the leaders of all the regional unions get together and make a rough plan that they'll then present to their members as the going forward game plan? That's what this seems like to me.
What I'd like to see is one union, with one list and one pay scale(relative to seats or something). Like the union I worked for shortly during college. But I don't fly 121 so, no dog really.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Can the leaders of all the regional unions get together and make a rough plan that they'll then present to their members as the going forward game plan? That's what this seems like to me.
What I'd like to see is one union, with one list and one pay scale(relative to seats or something). Like the union I worked for shortly during college. But I don't fly 121 so, no dog really.

Absolutely. Just so long as that plan doesn't involve any sort of concerted effort to financially harm their carriers.

As far as what you'd like to see, though, I view it as a pipe dream that is unachievable even with complete unity.

 

[mshunter]

Like WacoFan says, a lot of misplaced blame going on here. Don't blame the customer, they pay what mainline dictates they pay. Remember, we are getting the scraps that are left over that they don't want to fly, because they don't have the airplanes small enough to justify the cost, or some bean counter says it's cheaper for a regional to do it.

If you want to put blame on someone, blame the guys who are negotiating the contracts. And not just at one carrier.

 

[Binet-Simon]

Oooh, where to start. The National Labor Relations Act (NLRA) doesn't apply to pilots. Pilots (and railroad workers) fall under the Railway Labor Act (RLA). The two laws are very different, although some portions of the NLRA have been ported to the RLA side of the law by courts and arbitrators. But when it comes to concerted action, the RLA is far more restrictive. You can't take any sort of concerted action to harm the company unless you're first released to do so by the National Mediation Board (NMB). And they're only authorized to give a release after the bargaining and mediation processes have reached an impasse. And only they can determine when an impasse has actually been reached.

The whole process usually takes years.

Although the RLA doesn't specifically address "concerted action" you are correct. The NLRA does address it, and as you said, some portions have transported over to the RLA. Thats why I brought it up. The concerted action the RLA is concerned with deals with the disruption of service. This is somewhat different.
My point is that STW is not "unlawful concerted action" as it stands now. The insinuation that it is, is misguided. Additionally, there are other acts and rulings that intertwine to make up our current labor laws and protect this example of free speech.
Your expertise in this area surely outweighs mine so I will respectfully acquiesce.

S

 

[z987k]

Absolutely. Just so long as that plan doesn't involve any sort of concerted effort to financially harm their carriers.

As far as what you'd like to see, though, I view it as a pipe dream that is unachievable even with complete unity.

I'd think you could argue that almost any collective bargaining could financially harm the carriers in this day and age.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

The concerted action the RLA is concerned with deals with the disruption of service.

Not true. The law is concerned with concerted action of any type that could financially harm the carrier, even if service is not disrupted. For example, a campaign of maintenance write-ups would be an illegal job action, even if no flight is actually canceled.

My point is that STW is not "unlawful concerted action" as it stands now.

I don't really know what STW plans to do to carry out their objectives. But I think it is worth noting that certain things are illegal and counterproductive, so that STW doesn't go down that route.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

I'd think you could argue that almost any collective bargaining could financially harm the carriers in this day and age.

Collective bargaining is part of the RLA process, and not an illegal concerted action.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

With the lack of airline loyalty among most mouthbreathers, Id assume consumer demand plays some sort of role in where a company chooses to set their ticket prices. If they want to put butts in seats, they arent going to be offering $600+ RT tickets in a semi terrible economy. They sell them cheap to appease consumer demand and tack on other fees. That is where the airlines are making a lot of their money today along with premium class ticket sales.

Ummm, no, not really. About half of the passengers in the back have a fair bit of loyalty. That's why there are loyalty programs that spend boatloads of marketing money on high value customers. And they are pretty valuable - 2% of the customers generally spend about 40% of the revenue the carrier sees, usually on full-fare, last minute tickets. Or corporate agreements that dictate the use of that particular carrier.

The cheap seats sold on Orbitz? The airline pricing people know that they can't sell every seat at a profit. But better to take $200 in revenue than the $0 in revenue they would get leaving the seat empty. The deeply discounted seats still help the bottom line. They let you operate bigger equipment, which is more efficient, and makes more room for mail and air cargo, which is very profitable. Operators that have attempted single class - single price routes have not been successful in the past, business and leisure travel are just inherently different products.

 

[drunkenbeagle]

I've been thinking about that lately. Why isn't there an airline service that has first class seating, and accommodations at competitive rates. Their are airlines that are strictly no frills and you pay just to look out the window. They do fine for people who want the lowest price. What about an airline that is on the opposite side that doesn't cost an arm and a leg?

Lufthansa tried a direct JFK/DUS 737 with 50 seats all business class, single price 10 years ago. Didn't work.

The biggest profitable customer is the "company travel policy." Mine requires a restricted fare coach ticket, cheapest within 2 hours of when I need to leave. Which is why a full-fare coach ticket is frequently almost the same price as a first class seat. An all-premium cabin would be very difficult to market to corporate travel buyers.