Stay at NK or go to AA

[Box hauler]

It’s stories like this and having worked for 2 different AA WO’s that makes it a tougher decision then some may think. Also NK is a better place to work then many outsiders give it credit for.

Honestly man, apply and if you get the interview and offer you will be able to get a better gut feeling on what’s best for you. If you get the offer from AA and take it that’s great. If you get the offer or a TBNT and don’t take it that’s also great. Sounds like you’re fairly happy and want to see if you could possibly be happier and that’s not a bad place to be.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

I believe that you had some post on here during your airlines merger. When things were questionable in your mind. You asked the group their opinion, if you should go to Delta, United or American. You stated that of the three you really wanted to go to American for the projected quick seniority. Were those thread you created an example of you seeking validation? Should I utilize the search function to prove my point?

No, because that was 2016 and I was dead serious looking to leave because I thought NYC would close. It stayed open but then in 2018 it would close for real. That is when I asked around. And luckily, the general consensus was I’d be crazy to give up 7th yr pay and longevity to stay in a NYC base, especially when family was still 6 hrs away and the in-laws a 1.5 hr flight. The advice was to move. I did. But not gonna lie, if the big 3 had called when NYC was still open in 2018, I would have taken it. Gotten NYC based, happy as a clam, and then complete panic and meltdown as covid hit and I I saw myself go to 30 hr pay with a wife and 2 kids. Then I would have txt my friends and confirmed my class were still CAs at AS making 250k+ and me about 30k, wondering how long this virus downturn would last and when I would fly again.

It’s a crapshoot. You’ll know at 65 when you set the brake for the last time if you made the right decision. In my case, the seniority was high which made the decision more difficult. But I think I have been honest enough that in 2018 if any of the big 3 called, I would have gone. I think (?) I said my order of preference was AA, UA, and DL in that order. But once we moved, the rug was pulled, and we weren’t in NYC anymore. Chasing a base seemed less worthy of a cause. The wife fell in love with the LA weather and activities and said she’s happy and doesn’t want to move to NJ. I stopped updating apps in 2019 once I was in CA.

 

[EDUC8-or]

I'm happy at AA. I have concerns about our financial position and state of the operation. But I'm a glass is half full guy and think we have some (okay lots of) room for improvement.

I'm an FO living in a senior base, last I checked I was around 40 percent. I almost always bid short call reserve because that's what works best for my family right now. I can hold narrowbody Captain in just about any base, but don't want to give up the seniority. I'd be much more senior in the left seat in LGA or MIA but for me it's not worth the commute. I get my first choice of schedules every month and just finally got a summer vacation.

I believe someone touched on this before, but one major key to my happiness is I avoid crew rooms and message boards. It's easy to get sucked into the toxic negativity. I go to work and go home. I think if you're happy at Spirit you'd be happy here, much of it has to do with your personality type. Best of luck with your interview and decision.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

No, because that was 2016 and I was dead serious looking to leave because I thought NYC would close. It stayed open but then in 2018 it would close for real. That is when I asked around. And luckily, the general consensus was I’d be crazy to give up 7th yr pay and longevity to stay in a NYC base, especially when family was still 6 hrs away and the in-laws a 1.5 hr flight. The advice was to move. I did. But not gonna lie, if the big 3 had called when NYC was still open in 2018, I would have taken it. Gotten NYC based, happy as a clam, and then complete panic and meltdown as covid hit and I I saw myself go to 30 hr pay with a wife and 2 kids. Then I would have txt my friends and confirmed my class were still CAs at AS making 250k+ and me about 30k, wondering how long this virus downturn would last and when I would fly again.

It’s a crapshoot. You’ll know at 65 when you set the brake for the last time if you made the right decision. In my case, the seniority was high which made the decision more difficult. But I think I have been honest enough that in 2018 if any of the big 3 called, I would have gone. I think (?) I said my order of preference was AA, UA, and DL in that order. But once we moved, the rug was pulled, and we weren’t in NYC anymore. Chasing a base seemed less worthy of a cause. The wife fell in love with the LA weather and activities and said she’s happy and doesn’t want to move to NJ. I stopped updating apps in 2019 once I was in CA.

And that's fair, but why'd you take a left on @FlySooner9 , he was also just asking a question about his career too.

 

[EIR]

There's been a lot of good advice on this thread. Ultimately it comes down to what you want. If AA will make life easier and a better QOL, then AA is a good option. Even if you do get a TBNT, life isn't over. You're making good money with a decent retirement at NK.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

As long as it’s not a quick TBNT…

”No” is a complete sentence!

 

[skypilot6]

So everyone has told you to go, and there isn't anyone that would blame you for going to AA given your age and desire to stay in DFW.

Just to play Devil's advocate a little bit because nobody has told you to stay, I'm gonna say stay.

Yes NK isn't perfect but some of the good highlights. 174 planes on property today, 300 total by 2027, and in town hall meetings management said to plan more beyond 2027. Yes this does come with some issues with staffing those planes. This MIGHT become a real problem in the future. it has caused a hiccup short term it looks like, Time will tell if this will become a real problem.

Spirit isn't leaving DFW, We have 3 Simulators in DFW and a MX base there. If NK could get more gates they would expand. Pre Pandemic I had heard from several reliable sources that NK wanted to build a MX hangar in DFW. Yes the base is a little Stagnant, So is ORD right now. But I don't see either leaving those airports. Those simulators aren't going anywhere either, So there are opportunities in the training department in the future should you want to go that route.

No we don't have legacy rates, and we never will. But what we do have is pretty good. With early openers in September I'm optimistic that the company will come to the table with something decent given the current hiring enviroment. Our current contract is very QOL focused as you know. So was the last one, and I expect the same for the next. QOL is what makes Spirit a great place to work.

The Crews are great, the people I fly with make me actually look forward to going to work, even after 5 years. I can't say the same for the other jobs I've had.

If Spirit can keep going on its current plan, and solve its problems it will be a great career airline. And there is the flip side of being acquired or merged which has its whole separate set of pros and cons.

 

[upup89]

Honestly man, apply and if you get the interview and offer you will be able to get a better gut feeling on what’s best for you. If you get the offer from AA and take it that’s great. If you get the offer or a TBNT and don’t take it that’s also great. Sounds like you’re fairly happy and want to see if you could possibly be happier and that’s not a bad place to be.

The problem with this, and I’m genuinely asking. Let’s say someone interviews with whatever airline, gets the job and then doesn’t accept the position. What happens if the industry tanks again and that airline said pilot turned down is the first one to start hiring again? Would the turned down airline really offer that same pilot another interview?

 

[Avalon781ML]

At the end of the day if you think you would be happier at AA you should take the chance. I’d also look at retirement forecasts and see how quickly you might expect to rise to the 60% seniority level. I used this when I was looking at making a similar jump to see when I would be “safe” from a potential furlough. I’d also consider this; if you had been offered jobs at both AA and NK at the same time in the past which would you have chosen then? That might be a more suitable means for choosing now as others have said before… 30+ years left to work so leaving 2.5 on the table at NK isn’t that big of a deal.
I wish you the best of luck in your decision making process.

 

[FlySooner9]

Thanks everyone for the well thought out replies. I know I’m not the only one looking at making moves right now and there’s lots of good thoughts in this thread.

 

[Cherokee_Cruiser]

And that's fair, but why'd you take a left on @FlySooner9 , he was also just asking a question about his career too.

Because I thought it was honest advice and he got real defensive?

Spirit isn't leaving DFW, We have 3 Simulators in DFW and a MX base there. If NK could get more gates they would expand. Pre Pandemic I had heard from several reliable sources that NK wanted to build a MX hangar in DFW. Yes the base is a little Stagnant, So is ORD right now. But I don't see either leaving those airports. Those simulators aren't going anywhere either, So there are opportunities in the training department in the future should you want to go that route.

Sorry, but this isn't how the airline industry works over a long term. I remember when Delta was massive in DFW. Gone. Bases will come and go. About the only "stability" one may find is the HQ base, eg, ATL for Delta, DFW for AA, SEA for AS, etc.

F9 closed ORD because their strategy changed. When it comes to ULCC, anything could change and they could enter (or pull out) from a certain hub and go for another strategy.

 

[woodreau]

As usual I always come in at the tail end of the conversation…

I cant believe I am pondering the same situation myself. This definitely was not on my radar 2 years ago Prepandemic. i am around 25% global seniority and around 45% seniority at DFW…. But within the few months I’m becoming more open to the possibility of leaving NK.

i dont hold any illusions that Spirit will stay any longer in DFW than it needs to. If spirit ever thought it would be better to leave, it will bail from DFW and not look back. Sandy even said so during my interview 8 years ago…. She wanted to make sure that I wasn’t attached to DFW because the airline definitely is not. It’s easy to DH pilots to DFW for training. Spirit has no investment in the DFW training center because it’s outsourced like everything else at Spirit.

I still work weekends and im just starting to be able to avoid red eyes pairing during the PBS bid. I spend the entire month camped out on flica trying to trade away the red eyes. Im willing to trade a 4 day 22hr with a red eye for a 4 day (3 duty periods) 15 hr with no red eyes and go under time and pay the company back. But outside of IOT normally there is no OT to swap with. So there goes the supposed schedule flexibility that every says is a plus here. If I don’t bid for it in my PBS bid, I’m usually stuck with what I get.

i definitely am not interested in AA and I already turned down my chance to go to AA 8 years ago when Airways gave me a CJO. However if someone else like United or FedEx or UPS called I might consider it. however things aren’t bad enough yet for me to actually get off my butt and actually do anything about it, like apply to the 3 places I’d consider if I wanted to leave. I’ll have to wait and see, once the kid is off to college in a few years. I only need to make it 15 more years.

for someone in their 30s, I think it’s a no brainer to leave. a 30-year old still has the benefit of time to regain the seniority they’re leaving behind. But AA is not much different than Spirit in that AA will do what’s best for AA and not whats best for you. So you have to look out for you as Spirit and AA will not be looking out for you.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

for someone in their 30s, I think it’s a no brainer to leave. a 30-year old still has the benefit of time to regain the seniority they’re leaving behind. But AA is not much different than Spirit in that AA will do what’s best for AA and not whats best for you. So you have to look out for you as Spirit and AA will not be looking out for you.

You literally described every airline on the planet here.

In the wise words of @jtrain609, “Bromance is OVER, Holmes!”

 

[Eagle421flyer]

I only need to make it 15 more years.

Pretty much the same (and about same relative seniority), it's a hard call to stay or leave. I've been furloughed before so I'm a little concerned about being at the bottom of a huge seniority list as I don't exactly have the time left in my career to outrun it, same with pay because best case scenario it takes me about 4 years to make up the pay difference. Good luck with whatever you decide it's not an easy decision at our age and seniority.

 

[learhawkerbe400]

For what it's worth, I just recently left AA after almost 9 years (now I've outed myself to any AA guy here) for a major freight carrier. The culture at AA is toxic, both from a management and a union standpoint. I was based in DFW and living in DFW. I was a fairly senior FO on the 737. I gave that up because I couldn't wake up every morning for the next 23 years and go to work at AA.

AA was always a dream of mine. I realize now that it was never a dream job. Even before the merger, the toxic attitudes that had permeated that place would never die.

I have no regrets with my decision. It's the best one I could have ever made.

It's funny when Covid hit i couldn't take all the bs and got off all the message boards. The "toxic culture" disappeared. The only culture i experienced was in the flight deck. That plus only having spent a year as an fo at airways gives me a totally different opinion from you. Everyone I've flown with the last 7 years has been mostly normal, not some deranged merger-pissed boomer. Going to work for me is typically a good time.

Culture is what you and the person you're flying with make it. A pilot group is a pilot group and there's nut jobs everywhere. AA may be the craziest group but they're leaving quickly.

hope you enjoy the new job!

 

[CoffeeIcePapers]

If the 10 CA vacancies aren't a fluke, then everyone at Spirit is going to see a lot of stagnation and the projected growth can disappear. We'll probably have a better idea of the landscape in a few months, but a couple of DFW captains bailed for AA.

 

[FlySooner9]

If you live in a Florida spirit base or LAS your in pretty good shape. Bases like Dfw even with the airline growing Dfw will likely see very little added flying.

 

[Maximilian_Jenius]

If you live in a Florida spirit base or LAS your in pretty good shape. Bases like Dfw even with the airline growing Dfw will likely see very little added flying.

Vegas is a growing base?

 

[FlySooner9]

Vegas is a growing base?

More so then Dfw or Ord. Had the second most vacancies in both seats besides FLL this last bid.

 

[woodreau]

Even though I don’t see the DFW base growing much in the future, if Spirit is somehow able to keep growing and finds pilots faster than pilots bail, what that means for the remaining DFW crews is that there will be plenty of overnights in LAS, MCO, and MIA doing turns in our other bases.

I do see Spirit eventually trying to go after the newly minted 1500hr ATPs continuing the race to the bottom as ULCCs replace the regional airlines.