Starship Launch

Funny, if you talk to someone at SpaceX, this was a success. They got it off the ground and got a lot of data. The next version is already much better, and now they have data to make it even better.

I didn’t say it wasn’t a success. I was commenting on the fact that you have to break things to learn things. Which is what happened.

I said, I was happy to see them succeed. What are you reading that I am missing?


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Funny, if you talk to someone at SpaceX, this was a success. They got it off the ground and got a lot of data. The next version is already much better, and now they have data to make it even better.

I think @inigo88 has it nailed.

The actual vehicle is really cool. The failure was in the boring facilities stuff—and it sounds like Musk pushed for a launch without caring if the pad was going to blow up or not.

This is a recurring theme with him by the way. Teslas are technologically awesome, but the actual manufacturing process—the boring part—is pretty unsuccessful. You’re buying a rocket ship of a car with the fit and finish of a car costing $30k less because Musk doesn’t care about things he finds uninteresting. If they don’t get it fixed it’s going to be a huge problem for Tesla going forward.

The issues with the launch pad for the Starship are very real and very challenging as well—the super shallow water table is going to make constructing one that doesn’t launch debris into engines is going to be difficult. And they’re wanting to eventually launch these at a pretty high frequency.
 
I wonder if Elon pops these things off just to annoy the feds. My guess is, yes. Not only does he have the money to do this, he has the money to do this and not take it seriously.
 
I didn’t say it wasn’t a success. I was commenting on the fact that you have to break things to learn things. Which is what happened.

I said, I was happy to see them succeed. What are you reading that I am missing?


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I wasn’t arguing with you. I was supporting your argument.
 
Of course that raises the specter of NASA sort of maybe slightly hoping that the thing WILL fail, and while certainly not withholding data or anything like that, possibly wiring their jaws shut and looking at each other with wide eyes and comical expressions when they see the GSE/launch pad/whatever. I don't think that's likely to be the case, but you can't help but wonder. Like no one from NASA said "hey guys, when you launch the really big ones, there's stuff you need to do that isn't necessary with a Falcon (or a Redstone, or even an Atlas)"?

I really don’t think this is the case for a couple reasons:

1. Dragon is the most successful of the commercial crew contenders, Orion is pretty purpose-built for Artemis, and Starliner has had so many recent problems - NASA’s current choices for getting astronauts to and from the ISS are SpaceX and Russia.

2. SpaceX won the Artemis lunar lander contract in 2021 with a variant of Starship, so NASA has a vested interest in the Starship program development to ensure we can safely land astronauts on the moon again.

3. This is my favorite. NASA is actually an incredibly transparent agency. They create an enormous mountain of technical reports and then make it all freely available. They can be a seemingly frustrating, bloated and slow bureaucratic agency, but they have forgotten more than many new-ish engineers will ever know, myself included. :) A lot of this technical data is free for the commercial sector to just hijack and use, and this long term impact to quality of life on earth is a nice byproduct of the fact that our tax money funds the NASA budget. An often cited example is the tempur pedic memory foam starting it’s life in the Apollo program, but there are tons of other examples.

The search engine for NASA technical reports is the NASA Technical Reports Server (NTRS). This database is an awesome resource:

I had a hunch that if I went and looked there would be documentation ad-nauseam about flame diverters, and I was not disappointed. My personal favorite so far is the “NASA Standard for Flame Deflector Design”, which is literally a plug and play short and to the point design manual that tells you all the equations to use to design and analyze a KSC-worthy flame deflector:

The nice thing about Elon is that he’s surprisingly transparent too (good and bad), and the fact that people could go back two years and find his musings about whether or not cheaping out on a flame deflector at Boca Chica will be a mistake is kind of awesome. He’s the chief engineer and the buck stops with him on all the major engineering decisions and what to spend resources on. It’s evident to me from that tweet that SpaceX engineering opinion was probably split and it was up to him to make a judgement call and take a calculated risk. This particular risk doesn’t feel like it was all that calculated - especially given the technical lessons learned that are already out there and readily accessible even by the layperson. So my advice / constructive criticism for the future would be, you can’t know everything - surround yourself with trustworthy smart people and defer to their experience where appropriate. I’m sure he has been to have made it this far, but I wonder if he needs more civil engineers and GSE subject matter experts at the table to make sure that the stuff the rocket is attached to doesn’t make the rocket blow up next time. :)
 
A lot of people whinging about the launch pad destruction:
It's a non issue.

They have already modified LC-39A at Kennedy and SLC-6 at Vandenberg.

2 sites ready made for heavy and super heavy launches.

Musk will play around with east and west coast launches then come back to Texas when(if) the floating platform concept becomes useful again.

Making an actual full launch pad at the Brownsville site can also happen at the FAA and EPA's leisure.
 
A lot of people whinging about the launch pad destruction:
It's a non issue.

They have already modified LC-39A at Kennedy and SLC-6 at Vandenberg.

2 sites ready made for heavy and super heavy launches.

Musk will play around with east and west coast launches then come back to Texas when(if) the floating platform concept becomes useful again.

Making an actual full launch pad at the Brownsville site can also happen at the FAA and EPA's leisure.

In the vast majority of industries, if you tell the government that in your “non-ideal outcome” you expect X area to be affected and the 1) that outcome happens and 2) it turns out to affect 10X area, you’d be in a • ton of trouble.

That’s a major screwup. And I’m kind of surprised you’re blowing off potential environmental effects given how anti-nuclear you are.
 
In the vast majority of industries, if you tell the government that in your “non-ideal outcome” you expect X area to be affected and the 1) that outcome happens and 2) it turns out to affect 10X area, you’d be in a • ton of trouble.

That’s a major screwup. And I’m kind of surprised you’re blowing off potential environmental effects given how anti-nuclear you are.

Is the area of effect the detonation cone or the ground plume area?

I'm guessing it's the ground plume. And yes, it was bad.
So don't launch without a proper flame trench.

And what is the nature of your environmental effects?

And staunchly I stand by anti-nuclear policy.
And explained it multiple times.

Nuclear consequences and rocket exhaust plumes are not in the same category and you know it.
 
Is the area of effect the detonation cone or the ground plume area?

I highly, highly doubt it’s limited to that. The shoreline of the Gulf has really serious environmental regulations, as it’s wetlands—particularly in this area—are the scrubbers for all the • that comes out of the Rio Grande.

So don't launch without a proper flame trench.

But they did. And that’s a big, big •up.

Nuclear consequences and rocket exhaust plumes are not in the same category and you know it.

If an oil company •ed up this bad drilling offshore in the GoM, it would be a big, big deal.
 
I highly, highly doubt it’s limited to that. The shoreline of the Gulf has really serious environmental regulations, as it’s wetlands—particularly in this area—are the scrubbers for all the • that comes out of the Rio Grande.



But they did. And that’s a big, big •up.



If an oil company •ed up this bad drilling offshore in the GoM, it would be a big, big deal.

Not the same, and you have no new information to add.

Try harder
 
Not the same, and you have no new information to add.

Try harder

Ok let’s ignore your hate boner for nuclear.

SpaceX screwed up, and should face consequences just like any company from any industry that screws up like they did.
 
If all of this had transpired 5 years ago many of the detractors here, not everyone, would've been making excuses and cheering SpaceX on in their pursuits. But Musk bought Twitter and now he's the persona non grata that despite your best efforts you can't ignore. Enjoy your Teslas people.

A lot of us thought that Musk was persona non grata long before he purchased twitter.
 
If all of this had transpired 5 years ago many of the detractors here, not everyone, would've been making excuses and cheering SpaceX on in their pursuits. But Musk bought Twitter and now he's the persona non grata that despite your best efforts you can't ignore. Enjoy your Teslas people.
Well, it was kind of just me. Everyone else thought he was an edgelord.

Look it up! It's all searchable right here!

You can be a "cult of personality", but all your sh-- better work... consistently, and you'd better have no competition.

But then, the average consumer wasn't the one who asked for more time bellyaching about blue checkmarks than being a cheerleader for a businesses he's merely an investor in.
 
I mean, Elon is guilty of thoughtcrimes. He should be de-platformed, banished , possibly brought up on charges. He has single handily destroyed what once was a reliable and trusted source of truth.
 
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