Split 91/135 duty and flying limitations

M

mshunter

Well-Known Member
Here's the scenario.

You fly a pt91 flight, flying the owner in his airplane. Then, later that day, you have a charter book that will put you beyond your 135 duty time, due to the pt91 flight you did earlier in the day. Is this legal?

I ask not because I was asked to do this, but it might happen in an upcomming day if a charter books. My boss says it's not legal and is scrambling to find an FO. I say it is, but I'm not sure who is right. Obviously I didn't argue with him and just nodded because I wasn't sure. Pick your battle for what and when, ya know.

What say you.
 
I believe that a tail-end Part 91 ferry is generally considered legal, but a Part 91 ferry at the beginning of your duty day is considered the same as a Part 135 leg in terms of duty and flight time limitations.

I've declined tail-end Part 91 ferries that would put me over my 135 duty day, though. Not just for safety, but I'd rather not deal with the potential for legal hassles.

And really...why are you trying to extend your own duty day?
 
Your boss is correct. Part 135 limitations specifically include "all other commercial flying."

You can do all the 91 you want at the end of the day, but the 8, 34, 120, and 1200 rules come first.
 
milleR said:
Your boss is correct. Part 135 limitations specifically include "all other commercial flying."

You can do all the 91 you want at the end of the day, but the 8, 34, 120, and 1200 rules come first.
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Thanks for the simple answer.:beer:
 
gne in prog said:
So you are arguing with your boss to make your day longer? That's a first for me.
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dasleben said:
I believe that a tail-end Part 91 ferry is generally considered legal, but a Part 91 ferry at the beginning of your duty day is considered the same as a Part 135 leg in terms of duty and flight time limitations.

I've declined tail-end Part 91 ferries that would put me over my 135 duty day, though. Not just for safety, but I'd rather not deal with the potential for legal hassles.

And really...why are you trying to extend your own duty day?
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No, and no. I didn't argue with my boss.

Obviously I didn't argue with him and just nodded because I wasn't sure.
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Sheesh, I'm beggining to think you guys just read a few lines, then post whatever to get to Old Skool post status. What gives.
 
mshunter said:
Sheesh, I'm beggining to think you guys just read a few lines, then post whatever to get to Old Skool post status. What gives.
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Sorry...

I'd like to think though that my post actually gave information that wouldn't be construed as "filler" to get my post count up. :dunno:
 
milleR said:
Your boss is correct. Part 135 limitations specifically include "all other commercial flying."

You can do all the 91 you want at the end of the day, but the 8, 34, 120, and 1200 rules come first.
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Id say his Boss is wrong.

You can do the part 91 flying BEFORE the 135 flight. Once your "duty" starts, then you got to abide by the rest rules. At the END of your duty time (14 hours) you need to have 10 hours rest and less then 8 hours of Hobbs in the previous 24 hours

Your Duty starts at the first 135 flight. You cant just decide, "oh Im done with the 135 flights so Im off Duty"

This is how it works for our 135 company per our opspecs
 
dasleben said:
Part 135 duty/flight time limitations are in your company's ops specs? New to me...which ops spec is it?
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Sorry, In our Ops Manual, not Ops Specs. I believe it matches identical to the 135 regulations, but I dont have time to verify that which is why I stated that. We have to go with the more restricted regulation when there is a difference between our manual and FAR 135
 
mshunter said:
Sheesh, I'm beggining to think you guys just read a few lines, then post whatever to get to Old Skool post status. What gives.
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i honestly could not care less about my post count. they can set it permanently to zero, i don't care.

more important that the legality issue is if it's smart. why would you want to make your duty day longer than 14 hours?
 
Fly_Unity said:
Sorry, In our Ops Manual, not Ops Specs. I believe it matches identical to the 135 regulations, but I dont have time to verify that which is why I stated that. We have to go with the more restricted regulation when there is a difference between our manual and FAR 135
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Gotcha, no problem. I wish my company had that type of language in our manual.
 
Fly_Unity said:
Id say his Boss is wrong.

You can do the part 91 flying BEFORE the 135 flight. Once your "duty" starts, then you got to abide by the rest rules. At the END of your duty time (14 hours) you need to have 10 hours rest and less then 8 hours of Hobbs in the previous 24 hours

Your Duty starts at the first 135 flight. You cant just decide, "oh Im done with the 135 flights so Im off Duty"

This is how it works for our 135 company per our opspecs
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The 135 maximums are "all commercial flying" maximums. So part 91 followed by part 135 all counts toward your 8/24. If you do 135 then 91, the 135 rules don't apply to the 91 part. So perfectly legal.

As the instructor for my 135 initial put it, breaking the 135 regulations when you're not flying 135 is like breaking the laws of Egypt when you're in the US.
 
msmspilot said:
The 135 maximums are "all commercial flying" maximums. So part 91 followed by part 135 all counts toward your 8/24. If you do 135 then 91, the 135 rules don't apply to the 91 part. So perfectly legal.

As the instructor for my 135 initial put it, breaking the 135 regulations when you're not flying 135 is like breaking the laws of Egypt when you're in the US.
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Well I have to disagree. (for example, your 135 airplane HAS to be kept up to 135 standards even if your doing a PART 91 flight, once its on the certificate it always has to stay on the same standard for all flights 91/135.)

Same with a pilot. you have to comply all your commercial flight times even if its 91 or 135. The difference is you dont have to be on duty when your doing 91. If your duty ends, then you can fly 91 all you want, but your duty stops 14 hours at the start of your first 135 flight.

Thats how I was taught. But maybe Im wrong. I will look it up and see if I can find it and will report if I wrong :D
 
I see where you're coming from with this, but it would be a pretty hard argument to make with the FAA that even though you were flying for your company, you weren't really "on duty" because it was the planes owner and therefore 91. While that may be true to the letter of the law, I think the interpretation would be different.

Edit to clarify: I'm talking about flying before your 135 duty starts.
 
I'd wager it's the same as 121. In 121 I could fly 8 hours and then do a pt 91 ferry or a deadhead and be legal. I could not however do a ferry or deadhead and then fly 8 hours.
 
milleR said:
Your boss is correct. Part 135 limitations specifically include "all other commercial flying."

You can do all the 91 you want at the end of the day, but the 8, 34, 120, and 1200 rules come first.
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MilleR is absolutely correct. Your boss is right.

Our company has gone over this extensively with the FAA in the past several years because of the amount of part 91 flying some of us do along with the 135 we do before and after.

In your original scenario, the fact that the part 91 flight comes first will burn you on your duty day if the later 135 charter would exceed your 14 hour duty day (which started with the part 91 commercial flight that you flew for compensation).

Now, if you fly a part 91 commercial flight AFTER a 135 charter, have at it. Then you'll only need to worry about having 10 hours of rest prior to the NEXT 135 flight as well as making sure you don't exceed 8/24 or 10/24 for two pilot crews.
 
Actually the Part 135 Certificate holder can not give you extra flight time during a rest period. It doesn't matter if it is part 91 or not.

FAA Letter

You may go to another company and fly 91 all you want during your rest period. I could be off on this, but if you hit your 8/24 with your part 135 employer, you can not fly part 91 flights with your part 135 employer.
 
Maurus said:
Actually the Part 135 Certificate holder can not give you extra flight time during a rest period. It doesn't matter if it is part 91 or not.

FAA Letter

You may go to another company and fly 91 all you want during your rest period. I could be off on this, but if you hit your 8/24 with your part 135 employer, you can not fly part 91 flights with your part 135 employer.
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Thats what I was looking for!

("Duty" has been interpreted to mean actual work for an air carrier or present responsibility to work should the occasion arise.)

Your limited to a 14 hour Duty no matter if its 91 or 135 or doing secretary work for this company. Thats how I understand it.
 
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