Split 91/135 duty and flying limitations

[seagull]

I think you should read the chief counsel opinion that I posted again. It clearly says that "...noting that if the instructor is not compensated for the flight instruction, the time spent is not considered other commercial flying" That's from the horse's mouth. If you're not paid, it does not count as "other commercial flying."

You are correct, to a point. Do some research on how FAA has interpreted "compensation" over the years (and upheld by the courts). You might be surprised. Without digging into them, I am fairly sure that they have considered accrual of fight time as being "compensation", for example. Maybe Tgray will jump in on that one!

 

[seagull]

I'm not arguing you are wrong, but you aren't likely to ever talk to the chief counsel, and it only takes somewhere between 1-5 years to get an official interpretation letter, which may or may not answer your question.

If you keep the poi happy, odds of getting violated decrease tremendously. You can always go over his head if you don't like his answer.

The poi's guidance will go a lot further in a violation defense than the "some people on a forum told me..." defense.

Well, the POI might not violate you, but it actually has no more weight with FAA than if "some people on a forum told me" when it comes to violations. Even a letter from the Region won't matter if the Chief Counsel disagrees.

 

[milleR]

You are correct, to a point. Do some research on how FAA has interpreted "compensation" over the years (and upheld by the courts). You might be surprised. Without digging into them, I am fairly sure that they have considered accrual of fight time as being "compensation", for example. Maybe Tgray will jump in on that one!

I find it hard to believe that accrual of flight time would be considered compensation for a person actively employed by a 135 certificate holder, especially if it's free flight instruction.

After a point, giving up flight time (read personal time) is a sacrifice.

 

[gne in prog]

Compensated or not, if you do a 10 hr day of 135, and then think it's a good idea to add 6 hrs of 91 time, or whatever the numbers would be to make you worry about a 14 hr day, you're doing it wrong. 91 time is no less tiring than 135 time is.

 

[Fly_Unity]

I thought I understood all this clearly until reading through this thread, now Im more confused then ever.

Here is how I think I understand it after reading though both Chief Counsels Opinions.

When getting a 135 assignment from your company, at the end of that flight, you must have 10 hours rest within the previous 24 hours. During that rest you can not make ANY flight (91 or 135) for that company. After the 135 flight, you can accept a 91 flight and go past the 8 hour requirement as long as you dont go past the max 14 hour duty requirement.

Or you can accept a company 91 flight BEFORE the 135 flight but it will count towards the 8 hour rule AND the 14 hour max duty in one 24 hour period. This in some cases may better because if you have a 135 flight the following day, you will be able to get the 10 hour rest required between Duty periods.

Does this seem to make sense with everything?

 

[milleR]

I thought I understood all this clearly until reading through this thread, now Im more confused then ever.

Here is how I think I understand it after reading though both Chief Counsels Opinions.

When getting a 135 assignment from your company, at the end of that flight, you must have 10 hours rest within the previous 24 hours. During that rest you can not make ANY flight (91 or 135) for that company. After the 135 flight, you can accept a 91 flight and go past the 8 hour requirement as long as you dont go past the max 14 hour duty requirement.

You can do all the 91 flying you like at the end of your 135 duty day, so long as at the end of your 91 flying you can meet the 135 rest requirements and not exceed the flight times before going back to work. Easy enough?

 

[milleR]

Or you can accept a company 91 flight BEFORE the 135 flight but it will count towards the 8 hour rule AND the 14 hour max duty in one 24 hour period. This in some cases may better because if you have a 135 flight the following day, you will be able to get the 10 hour rest required between Duty periods.

This is correct.

Sorry for the multiple posts, iPhone doesn't make this easy.

 

[tgrayson]

I think you should read the chief counsel opinion that I posted again. It clearly says that "...noting that if the instructor is not compensated for the flight instruction, the time spent is not considered other commercial flying" That's from the horse's mouth. If you're not paid, it does not count as "other commercial flying."

Did you read the letter referenced by that letter? Here it is:

Mr. Ryan Koepp
3884 Stonebridge Drive North
Eagan, MN 55123
Dear Mr. Koepp,

This is in response to your November 5, 2007, request for an interpretation of "other commercial flying time" as it applies to the following four scenarios involving "off duty" flight instruction and the flight time limitations of part 121.
1. Providing flight instruction while not acting as a required crewmember and without compensation (i.e., providing instruction to your spouse for a CFI certificate);
2. Providing flight instruction while acting as a required crewmember but without compensation (i.e., providing instruction to a spouse for a private pilot certificate);
3. Providing flight instruction while not acting as a required crewmember but receiving compensation (i.e., with money, gifts, or merely the benefits from logging hours); and
4. Providing flight instruction while acting as a required crewmember and receiving compensation.
[...]
​

This letter, like all other letters from the FAA's General Counsel's Office, considers the receipt of flight time compensation. This letter draws a distinction I haven't seen before, but considers the flight time you gain by instructing a family member to be an exception to that rule, probably because you're paying for it. But it clearly indicates that flight time earned by providing instruction to others would be compensation. They don't take into account whether or not you actually need the flight time.

 

[milleR]

This letter draws a distinction I haven't seen before, but considers the flight time you gain by instructing a family member to be an exception to that rule. But it clearly indicates that flight time earned by providing instruction to others would be compensation. They don't take into account whether or not you actually need the flight time.

That's both interesting and irritating.

 

[mshunter]

Just as forcast, I came within 10 minutes of my duty day. Made it back to VNY with 10 minutes to spare. If Southwest would have been delayed, I would have been over, and would have been required more rest. My day started at 4:30am. Got back to VNY at 6:20PM.

Time for a beer and then bed!

 

[jeflies]

From my understanding. 91 legs before 135 legs count towards duty and flying limitations while 91 legs back home after the 135 legs don't count towards those limitation. The 91 leg has to be a flight back to your home base though.

I'm not sure if this is a contribution to the topic or my own ramblings to justify my understanding of the rules. Here goes;

So for example your beginning a trip that contains empty and revenue legs. The first two legs of the trip were flown empty as positioning legs (91) and the third leg will have customer stuff on board (revenue).

Even though the first two legs were flown empty, they were part of the assignment that includes a 135 revenue leg. The 135 flight/duty/rest rules apply to ALL of these legs since you will be carrying property/passengers on the final leg for revenue. As it was taught to me, "one drop poisons the whole well."

In the situations where you finish all of your 135 revenue flying and your company asks you to reposition to XYZ airport, you are legal to make these flights. Since the original trip has been completed and this new "tail end 91 leg" does not contain any 135 revenue legs, the 135 duty/rest/flight time rules do not apply.

Even if you just did your 8 hours and maxed out your 24 hour limitation, since these are not 135 revenue legs, that rule does not apply.

Since you are not flying a 135 revenue leg, you do not need your 10 consecutive hours of rest before starting that.

If your duty is at 14 hours upon completion of the trip, you can go off duty, duty back on and not be regulated by the 135 rest requirements because, you are not flying any 135 revenue legs.

To sum up what I'm trying to ramble here, Austin Collins says, "A flight with no customer property and no paying passengers on board may be conducted under Part 91. In that case, Part 135 regulations do not apply to that leg. If a duty assignment is scheduled to include even one Part 135 flight (leg), however, then §135.267 applies to the entire assignment in terms of whether you can accept it or not."

Here's the scenario.

You fly a pt91 flight, flying the owner in his airplane. Then, later that day, you have a charter book that will put you beyond your 135 duty time, due to the pt91 flight you did earlier in the day. Is this legal?

To try and answer the OP's question, the pt91 flight flying the owner in his own airplane needs to be clarified. Simply put, was it commercial flying? Also, were/should you have been on duty while doing that flight?

I'm not sure if the owner and his airplane are part of the same company/organization as the charter that you fly but if they are, then you should be on duty for those type of flights.

The flight time from that pt91 flight does count towards what you would be doing later that day with the charter if you were compensated for making that flight.

Hope this doesn't add to the confusion.