Split 91/135 duty and flying limitations

Maurus said:
Actually the Part 135 Certificate holder can not give you extra flight time during a rest period. It doesn't matter if it is part 91 or not.

FAA Letter

You may go to another company and fly 91 all you want during your rest period. I could be off on this, but if you hit your 8/24 with your part 135 employer, you can not fly part 91 flights with your part 135 employer.
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I'll clarify by saying that the part 91 flying that I was referring to is not assigned by our 135 company.

The letter you posted is pretty clear about duties assigned by the company whether it be 91 or 135. Good stuff.
 
From my understanding. 91 legs before 135 legs count towards duty and flying limitations while 91 legs back home after the 135 legs don't count towards those limitation. The 91 leg has to be a flight back to your home base though.
 
casey said:
I'd wager it's the same as 121. In 121 I could fly 8 hours and then do a pt 91 ferry or a deadhead and be legal. I could not however do a ferry or deadhead and then fly 8 hours.
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You can DH (ride in the back) then fly 8 hours block. Just have to make sure you are in your duty limits (DH counts as duty)
 
KLB said:
From my understanding. 91 legs before 135 legs count towards duty and flying limitations while 91 legs back home after the 135 legs don't count towards those limitation. The 91 leg has to be a flight back to your home base though.
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According to the letter once you are in a required rest period you can not be assigned any more flying by the certificate holder.

I don't fly Part 135, but that would be how I read it. That is unless the duty day can continue even though you have your 8 flight hours and there is a ferry exception I have yet to see.
 
Maurus said:
According to the letter once you are in a required rest period you can not be assigned any more flying by the certificate holder.

I don't fly Part 135, but that would be how I read it.
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Yes, your rest period begins once you are done all of your flying. You can back end part 91 all you want past your 135/121 duty limit, but that's not your rest period.
 
Schaweet! I'm glad I bit my tounge, and decided to look into it more before I looked like a fool infront of the man. He's a good boss, and is always looking out for the saftey of his guys before he try's to make a buck. Thats why I thought he might be wrong. I had an early showtime this morning (up at 3am to be at the plane at 4am to ferry it to pick up the owner by 5am)and he wanted me to stay in a hotel closer to the airplane to keep me well rested even though my duty times will work for the flying we are supposed to do today.
 
Maurus said:
Actually the Part 135 Certificate holder can not give you extra flight time during a rest period. It doesn't matter if it is part 91 or not.

FAA Letter

You may go to another company and fly 91 all you want during your rest period. I could be off on this, but if you hit your 8/24 with your part 135 employer, you can not fly part 91 flights with your part 135 employer.
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That's not what that letter says. It says that they can't assign you other work and also count it as rest. The regulation quoted says "required rest period." There is no required rest period for a part 91 flight.

If you're in your rest period, and they call you for a 135 leg, you haven't had your rest and must refuse. If they call you for a 91 leg, you can take it, but your rest restarts at the end of the time you finish company responsibilities for the 91 leg.

If it's being interpreted any other way, every 135 operator out there is doing it wrong.
 
All i know is that we split our 135 time and our 91 flight time up on our duty sheets, and our POI doesnt seem to have a problem with it.

I think the disconnect is coming from flight time vs duty time. A part 91 flight counts as duty time if you're doing it for your 135 employer, but it doesnt count towards your eight hours.
 
cmill said:
All i know is that we split our 135 time and our 91 flight time up on our duty sheets, and our POI doesnt seem to have a problem with it.

I think the disconnect is coming from flight time vs duty time. A part 91 flight counts as duty time if you're doing it for your 135 employer, but it doesnt count towards your eight hours.
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It absolutely does count if you get paid for it.
 
From 135.265/135.267

(a) No certificate holder may schedule any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time in scheduled operations or in other commercial flying if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed --

(a) No certificate holder may assign any flight crewmember, and no flight crewmember may accept an assignment, for flight time as a member of a one- or two-pilot crew if that crewmember's total flight time in all commercial flying will exceed --
 
milleR said:
It absolutely does count if you get paid for it.
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I read the letter that was posted, and it refers to duties assigned during a rest period.

Edit: you beat me to it. I think the crux of the matter is, what exactly is "commercial flying?" There are part 91 ops out there that require pilots to fly more than 8 hours. They get paid for it, but it falls under 91, so there is no limit. Its splicing hairs, but thats what its all about. Commercial flying != paid flying.
 
Maurus said:
According to the letter once you are in a required rest period you can not be assigned any more flying by the certificate holder.

I don't fly Part 135, but that would be how I read it. That is unless the duty day can continue even though you have your 8 flight hours and there is a ferry exception I have yet to see.
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I believe not being assigned is the key. You can choose( I wouldn't recommend it) to fly back home part 91 after a 16hr duty day. The company can't tell you to fly back home after a 16hr duty day though.
 
milleR said:
It absolutely does count if you get paid for it.
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cmill said:
I read the letter that was posted, and it refers to duties assigned during a rest period.

Edit: you beat me to it. I think the crux of the matter is, what exactly is "commercial flying?" There are part 91 ops out there that require pilots to fly more than 8 hours. They get paid for it, but it falls under 91, so there is no limit. Its splicing hairs, but thats what its all about. Commercial flying != paid flying.
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Here is another chief counsel opinion that has been posted on this forum before that talks about this issue. Being paid counts as commercial flying and counts towards your 8/10 hours (whatever your case may be).
 
cmill said:
Thanks for that letter, that answered most of my questions, ill definitely take it into consideration.
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The rule is not that hard. ALL commercial flying counts. Period. Doesn't matter if you're paid for it, incidentally. The limitations that apply are those pertinent to the actual flight you are making. You can go from 91 to 121 to 135, and various subparts, and each flight is limited only to that section of the regulation that you are operating under, however, the limits include ALL commercial flight time you've made, regardless of which it was.
 
seagull said:
The rule is not that hard. ALL commercial flying counts. Period. Doesn't matter if you're paid for it, incidentally. The limitations that apply are those pertinent to the actual flight you are making. You can go from 91 to 121 to 135, and various subparts, and each flight is limited only to that section of the regulation that you are operating under, however, the limits include ALL commercial flight time you've made, regardless of which it was.
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I think you should read the chief counsel opinion that I posted again. It clearly says that "...noting that if the instructor is not compensated for the flight instruction, the time spent is not considered other commercial flying" That's from the horse's mouth. If you're not paid, it does not count as "other commercial flying."
 
seagull said:
Which one will hold up if they try to violate you?
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I'm not arguing you are wrong, but you aren't likely to ever talk to the chief counsel, and it only takes somewhere between 1-5 years to get an official interpretation letter, which may or may not answer your question.

If you keep the poi happy, odds of getting violated decrease tremendously. You can always go over his head if you don't like his answer.

The poi's guidance will go a lot further in a violation defense than the "some people on a forum told me..." defense.
 
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