Spatial Disorientation
- Thread starter N99999
- Start date
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Maddog1974
Well-Known Member
:rotfl:
THAT might have been the single greatest thread highjack evar!!!
The presence or lack of precip does not influence whether or not radar will show clouds. Radar shows the precip inside, above, below or around a cloud, but it does not show the clouds themselves. I know it might seem like I'm just being petty, but I do think it's an important distinction to make when trying to clarify the purpose of radar for someone who has a misunderstanding of it.
Clouds do not show on weather radar.
Firebird2XC
Well-Known Member
Us Chucks stick together.
You know what you have when you don't have any Chuck Norris?
A nun-chuck.
Hi!
I have gotten a spatial disorientation lots of times. I learned to fly IMC with my dad, and he taught me how to maintain control, even if I have vertigo.
I have flown almost always with a two-pilot crew, and I have had, maybe 5 times or so: The other guy was flying, when he lets go of the controls says he has vertigo, and "You got it!" So, I took the controls no problem. But, I was thinking, what if I now get vertigo, too. Am I going to let go of the controls and we will die?
My opinion is, so what if you have vertigo? When I get it, I just stare at the attitude indicator and keep the plane going the way its supposed to, until it goes away. Has not been a problem for me, and I'm really glad my dad showed me how to fly IMC.
Have flown with a number of guys who wanted to climb/descend to get out of the clouds...I'm like, go ahead, knock yourself out. I don't care if it's day/night/clear/clouds..I just fly!
cliff
LFW
I have gotten a spatial disorientation lots of times. I learned to fly IMC with my dad, and he taught me how to maintain control, even if I have vertigo.
I have flown almost always with a two-pilot crew, and I have had, maybe 5 times or so: The other guy was flying, when he lets go of the controls says he has vertigo, and "You got it!" So, I took the controls no problem. But, I was thinking, what if I now get vertigo, too. Am I going to let go of the controls and we will die?
My opinion is, so what if you have vertigo? When I get it, I just stare at the attitude indicator and keep the plane going the way its supposed to, until it goes away. Has not been a problem for me, and I'm really glad my dad showed me how to fly IMC.
Have flown with a number of guys who wanted to climb/descend to get out of the clouds...I'm like, go ahead, knock yourself out. I don't care if it's day/night/clear/clouds..I just fly!
cliff
LFW
Even with assistance such as Night Vision Goggles, one can get Spatial D'd. Spatial D problems in the sense of challenges, not necessarily a problem with the system itself. A good analogy would be taking two paper towel tubes and looking through them, in order to get an idea of field-of-view challenges. With NVGs, everything takes on a green hue, and lights on the ground may or may not differentiate in brightness and intensity, depending on their location, their number, and their concentration. So it's easy to, if you're flying purely visual, mistake stars in the sky for ground lighting and vice versa. That's why items like NVGs aren't said to "turn night into day" since you still need to monitor, analyze and cross-check your flight instruments.
Real world example: A little over seven years ago back in the A-10, I was flying a night flight to the bombing range. Low illumination and no moon (read: pretty damn dark). Coming off of a 45 degree dive-bomb pass, I was climbing through 35 degrees nose high and 20 degrees right bank and looking out the top right side of the canopy to try and spot my wingman in order to facilitate a visual pickup and thus, a quick altitude block-swap so he could begin his bomb pass from the "low block", or lower altitude block that I was currently in (commonly known as the "shooter block", with the high block being the "cover block" separated by 1000' or more.) Primarily, you use procedural deconfliction in the sense of differing headings and opening air-air TACAN (both jets going away from each other) and swap altitude blocks once about 2 miles and growing is reached. However, block swaps can be expedited if one or both jets have a visual on the other. So as I'm looking out my canopy, I'm pulling the jet back to the horizon purely by visual at about 100 degrees bank from 30 degrees nose high and coming down. I spot my wingman and begin radioing instructions to him while still flying the jet to level flight. For some reason, as the jet approached the horizon, still in 110 degrees bank, I kept padlocked (eyes on) my wingman while subconciously leveling the plane to the horizon and rolling out. But the Gs didn't feel right and the jet kept wanting to climb, forcing me to keep trimming nose-down trim. After about the third time of this unusual aircraft behavior and odd feeling Gs, I stopped looking at the other jet and looked ahead, seeing ground lights and the black sky above the horizon. I crosschecked into the cockpit to the ADI to find the grey on top and the white underneath, and the HUD pitch ladders with the broken lines on top (the HUD has pitch ladders in 5 degree increments with all the bars above the horizon solid and those below the horizon broken-lined....instant SA builder/helper). It took a few seconds to register that the jet was actually level-inverted, and the nose was trying to "fall through" the horizon, creating the odd feel of weightlessness to -1 G, and necessitating the second nature application of nose-down trim (to keep the nose "up" to the horizon). I quickly rolled 180 degrees and back to level upright flight, and took a minute to catch a breather and unscrew the situation.
This in an example of how even NVG flying can bite you if you get complacent for any amount of time, or task saturate yourself and end up dropping out/misprioritizing cross-checks. It can and does happen to the best of the best. When that happens, you've got to be able to (figuratively) throttle-back and assess, then do whatever's necessary to unscrew the situation, and un-tumbleweed yourself quick, lest you end up a smoking hole in the ground.
Whats funny is that earlier in that week, I'd heard this exchange during night air-air refueling. I was meeting a KC-135 tanker at AR-647 (south of KCGZ). The tanker was in and out of clouds/rain to where you got the "rush" effect of the WX going past the two of you. With NVGs off, you couldn't see when the tanker was going to enter the WX and it takes you by surprise.
Very good potential for Spatial D
The flight ahead of me, I heard this over the radio from the fighter on the boom ahead of me...........
Gunhog11: "Grizzley (the KC-135), any chance we can roll-out of this turn and AR straight tonight, it's getting a little disconcerting out here..."
Grizzley 21: "We're straight and level, sir."
Gunhog11: (somewhat suprised) "Ummm, Roger."
Real world example: A little over seven years ago back in the A-10, I was flying a night flight to the bombing range. Low illumination and no moon (read: pretty damn dark). Coming off of a 45 degree dive-bomb pass, I was climbing through 35 degrees nose high and 20 degrees right bank and looking out the top right side of the canopy to try and spot my wingman in order to facilitate a visual pickup and thus, a quick altitude block-swap so he could begin his bomb pass from the "low block", or lower altitude block that I was currently in (commonly known as the "shooter block", with the high block being the "cover block" separated by 1000' or more.) Primarily, you use procedural deconfliction in the sense of differing headings and opening air-air TACAN (both jets going away from each other) and swap altitude blocks once about 2 miles and growing is reached. However, block swaps can be expedited if one or both jets have a visual on the other. So as I'm looking out my canopy, I'm pulling the jet back to the horizon purely by visual at about 100 degrees bank from 30 degrees nose high and coming down. I spot my wingman and begin radioing instructions to him while still flying the jet to level flight. For some reason, as the jet approached the horizon, still in 110 degrees bank, I kept padlocked (eyes on) my wingman while subconciously leveling the plane to the horizon and rolling out. But the Gs didn't feel right and the jet kept wanting to climb, forcing me to keep trimming nose-down trim. After about the third time of this unusual aircraft behavior and odd feeling Gs, I stopped looking at the other jet and looked ahead, seeing ground lights and the black sky above the horizon. I crosschecked into the cockpit to the ADI to find the grey on top and the white underneath, and the HUD pitch ladders with the broken lines on top (the HUD has pitch ladders in 5 degree increments with all the bars above the horizon solid and those below the horizon broken-lined....instant SA builder/helper). It took a few seconds to register that the jet was actually level-inverted, and the nose was trying to "fall through" the horizon, creating the odd feel of weightlessness to -1 G, and necessitating the second nature application of nose-down trim (to keep the nose "up" to the horizon). I quickly rolled 180 degrees and back to level upright flight, and took a minute to catch a breather and unscrew the situation.
This in an example of how even NVG flying can bite you if you get complacent for any amount of time, or task saturate yourself and end up dropping out/misprioritizing cross-checks. It can and does happen to the best of the best. When that happens, you've got to be able to (figuratively) throttle-back and assess, then do whatever's necessary to unscrew the situation, and un-tumbleweed yourself quick, lest you end up a smoking hole in the ground.
Whats funny is that earlier in that week, I'd heard this exchange during night air-air refueling. I was meeting a KC-135 tanker at AR-647 (south of KCGZ). The tanker was in and out of clouds/rain to where you got the "rush" effect of the WX going past the two of you. With NVGs off, you couldn't see when the tanker was going to enter the WX and it takes you by surprise.
Very good potential for Spatial D
The flight ahead of me, I heard this over the radio from the fighter on the boom ahead of me...........
Gunhog11: "Grizzley (the KC-135), any chance we can roll-out of this turn and AR straight tonight, it's getting a little disconcerting out here..."
Grizzley 21: "We're straight and level, sir."
Gunhog11: (somewhat suprised) "Ummm, Roger."
There are three distinct types of Spatial D: Type I, Type II and Type III. The easiest way to describe the difference with each type has to do with the different facial expression of the pilot as the plane impacts the ground.
Type 1 Spatial D is the worst, since it's insidious in onset and unrecognized; the pilot impacts the ground fat/dumb/happy with no realization that anything is wrong, nor any corrective action.
Type II Spatial D is where the pilot realizes something is amiss, but either hasn't figured out what corrective action needs to be taken yet, or doesn't yet realize the gravity of the situation. The pilot in this case impacts the ground with a look of concern on his face.
Type III Spatial D is the scariest, yet rarest too. Type III SD is where the pilot recognizes something is very wrong (instruments don't agree, etc) and each action he attempts to take either is the wrong one, or keeps the problem the same or makes it worse. The pilot in this case impacts the ground with a look of shear terror on his face.
So there you have it. Sick, I know; yet an accurate description of the three types.
z987k
Well-Known Member
undoubtedly all vfr to I would assume.
That looks like it has signature line potential. The "rush" effect of what you described is what I experienced. In day, or night IMC with decent visibility and broken cloudcover, you can see the clouds coming, and you don't really notice them as they fly by you. On dark nights, such at that night for me, you can't see the clouds until they're flying by you. I will admit, after the first few, it started to be fun and exciting.
z987k
Well-Known Member
Sorry. The way you described it sounded like you were just out there punching through clouds.
ryan1234
Desensitized Member
That sounds more like a thunderstorm than night IMC. I would prefer night IMC over day IMC because.... it seems like you can get "spatial D" easier because of the increased focus to cloud shapes in the daytime. In night IMC, provided your strobe is off... it's not really the case.
Florida can have a mysterious way of creating IMC conditions at night with no clouds... and certainly in the Islands - which is why night VFR is not allowed down there.
...this is a problem...
z987k
Well-Known Member
Yeah we mentioned that 10 times in the beginning of the thread.
Excuse me; perhaps I should've said that I was briefed that the enroute and destination conditions were VFR. Calm down. People on the Internet love to pass judgement about others. I can't believe you <redacted> are insinuating that I should not have passed my checkride because of an error in diction (you sure you don't work for the FAA?); I was trying to provide an anecdotal experience from an early experience that could possibly help someone rather than get flamed myself. Maybe some CFI would think to tell a PPL student, "you shouldn't fly night VFR in Florida along routes where there are no reporting stations"
They say that the first 1000 hours of any pilot's experience are filled with mistakes, and any pilot that says otherwise is lying. I did something and thought, "that was kindof scary, I should tell people about it to help others think through a decision."
ryan1234
Desensitized Member
There's no need to call people names on an internet forum. Not knowing that clouds can't be seen on radar as well as a general understanding of limitations of weather reporting services is a fundamental part of the instrument rating - and yes, you're expected to know that before you get the ticket. You can call people all the names you'd like... but it doesn't change the fact, nor does it make it simply a "diction" error.
You don't need weather reporting stations for night VFR, but it does help - and you should never rely on a station to give you the latest accurate weather. When we fly to various Central American/Caribbean countries - the weather reporting can be so bad that it becomes worse than useless.... and more times than not fuel is a huge issue as well as terrain.
You're incident is a fundamental part of getting experience as a pilot.
Timbo
Well-Known Member
One question for 99999;
What was your -plan- in the event of an engine failure? You said you were "over the swamp" you know there's nowhere to put down in the swamp, and there are big things down there that eat people even if you survived the impact.
I live in central FL, Sebring, well north of the Swamp area, good grass strips all over the place that I've been in and out of in the daylight many times, but I doubt if I could find -any- of them at night.
Flying at night in a single engine airplane, with no -plan- (somewhere close by to land) is not a good idea, instrument ticket or no, clear skies or clouds.
"If it were me..." (and it would -not- have been me, I'm a real • when it comes to night flying in a single, I don't like leaving the traffic pattern! But I'm still alive after 31 years of flying full time) I would have planned my route to be sure I over flew as many -lighted- runways as possible along the way, and I would have flown much higher than 4,500, to have more time/options to make one of my divert fields in the event of loss of power, unless that would put you into a cloud deck.
Yes, it would take you longer to get from A to B. But do you really want to try to land in a swamp, at night?
What was the reason you couldn't wait until morning? You could have stopped into Sebring and called me, I've got cold beer in the fridge!
What was your -plan- in the event of an engine failure? You said you were "over the swamp" you know there's nowhere to put down in the swamp, and there are big things down there that eat people even if you survived the impact.
I live in central FL, Sebring, well north of the Swamp area, good grass strips all over the place that I've been in and out of in the daylight many times, but I doubt if I could find -any- of them at night.
Flying at night in a single engine airplane, with no -plan- (somewhere close by to land) is not a good idea, instrument ticket or no, clear skies or clouds.
"If it were me..." (and it would -not- have been me, I'm a real • when it comes to night flying in a single, I don't like leaving the traffic pattern! But I'm still alive after 31 years of flying full time) I would have planned my route to be sure I over flew as many -lighted- runways as possible along the way, and I would have flown much higher than 4,500, to have more time/options to make one of my divert fields in the event of loss of power, unless that would put you into a cloud deck.
Yes, it would take you longer to get from A to B. But do you really want to try to land in a swamp, at night?
What was the reason you couldn't wait until morning? You could have stopped into Sebring and called me, I've got cold beer in the fridge!
Bumblebee
Commodore
fixed it for you.
doesn't mean you are a wimp...means you are thoughtful and have a well developed survival instinct...Similar threads
