Southwest 1st Day at LGA a failure
- Thread starter SmitteyB
- Start date
mrivc211
Well-Known Member
Hey Bob-
I wish people just responded to things like human beings, like your statement here.
v1valarob
Well-Known Member
First of all, we're all doing the same speed below 10,000 unless you're breaking the regs.
And lastly, I'm pretty sure that within 15 miles of the airport I'd get beat you in that "little airplane".....easily.
Yes I'm talking trash.
I don't see how you think that us freight pilots wouldn't understand. We fly into the same airports you do.
Listen. majors piss on regional guys, regional guys piss on freight guys, freight guys piss on CFIs, and CFIs piss on students. Its how it works.
We all think we are better than each other, but we are all just as bad as each other, and until that changes we are all just going to keep getting pissed on.
KLB
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but the funny part is that my butt really hurts due to the thickness of my wallet. Do you guys even have a need to carry a wallet?
Yes I'm still talking trash.
First of all, we're all doing the same speed below 10,000 unless you're breaking the regs.
And lastly, I'm pretty sure that within 15 miles of the airport I'd get beat you in that "little airplane".....easily.
Yes I'm talking trash.
I don't see how you think that us freight pilots wouldn't understand. We fly into the same airports you do.
With that logic, since I always did 300 below 10k, I can look down on all of you.....
AirAlgerie
New Member
They are also Boeings Best friend :beer:Southwest Airlines are ATC best friends, I thought you knew that
SurferLucas
Southern Gentleman
I know for a fact that Southwest host pizza parties for Seattle Approach and Portland Approach...take that for what it's worth...
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
SWA pilots learn, durring their long upgrade time, every possible shortcut in and out of every airport they fly too. They also have developed a reputation of "We'll make it work" when ATC lets them take those shortcuts.
Much the same as us freight dawgs. ATC knows that I'll accept a 70deg loc intercept if it'll put me at the front of the line. They also know that I'll crank it over hard in order to make that work.
Queboat
Well-Known Member
i get pissed on by no one!
FlyChicaga
Vintage Restoration
I really have to laugh... one of the most profitable airlines ever in existence, which treats it employees with respect, and everyone loves calling out their mistakes. It seems like jealousy to me. But I digress.
About the ATC favoritism... I wish I could find the post, but a controller on another forum actually admitted that he does in fact give priority to SWA when he can. Why? Because "SWA always will turn right when I ask them, and they normally don't complain when I need a tight turn or them to slow 'immediately'."
When I was flying for the ExpressJet branded operation, and at my previous company, I also experienced this "favoritism." It was only because our crews always did what they could to do what ATC needed, as long as it did not violate safety, the regulations, or make our customers uncomfortable. I remember landing in MDW, and behind us was an NWA DC-9. ATC said to us, "Please plan to exit at Papa." We did without complaint, because we knew the DC-9 was close behind us. ATC also advised NWA, "Northwest 123, please plan to exit at Papa." Their response? "We'll exit where we please SIR."
Now if you were ATC, which company would you give priority to in the future?
It is what it is. I don't view it as violating safety. Never in all the times I've jumpseated in the cockpit of an SWA jet have I witnessed a crew violating safety. I have witnessed crews realizing that "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" works wonders. Go figure...
About the ATC favoritism... I wish I could find the post, but a controller on another forum actually admitted that he does in fact give priority to SWA when he can. Why? Because "SWA always will turn right when I ask them, and they normally don't complain when I need a tight turn or them to slow 'immediately'."
When I was flying for the ExpressJet branded operation, and at my previous company, I also experienced this "favoritism." It was only because our crews always did what they could to do what ATC needed, as long as it did not violate safety, the regulations, or make our customers uncomfortable. I remember landing in MDW, and behind us was an NWA DC-9. ATC said to us, "Please plan to exit at Papa." We did without complaint, because we knew the DC-9 was close behind us. ATC also advised NWA, "Northwest 123, please plan to exit at Papa." Their response? "We'll exit where we please SIR."
Now if you were ATC, which company would you give priority to in the future?
It is what it is. I don't view it as violating safety. Never in all the times I've jumpseated in the cockpit of an SWA jet have I witnessed a crew violating safety. I have witnessed crews realizing that "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" works wonders. Go figure...
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
TheGirlinPurple
Well-Known Member
I cannot comment from a tower perspective, but from a center perspective in which we blend traffic/start spacing for almost every major airport in the central to eastern US, here is one perspective:
Facts-
1. Southwest almost always flies at or very close to their maximum forward airspeeds. They rarely pull back to conserve fuel. They don't pull back in the climb/descent unless asked to. This usually makes them faster. Faster plane in front gets there quicker.
2. They ask for shortcuts more than any other pilot group. The more you ask for a shortcut the more you get them(unless you pester, basically ask for it once per frequency change, eventually you'll find out who can authorize it).
3. They rarely ask for impossible short cuts(i.e. direct MDW when landing at MDW). They fly into Midway all the time and seem to remember on the Fissk 1 arrival they are only going to get Kokomo. So what do they ask for? Kokomo. Ask for Veeck especially durring a push and there is an answer I can definitely tell you that you will get: UNABLE. Depending on the controller you get and their workload, they may take the time and give you kokomo, but that depends on the controller. I can't tell you how many times I get pilots asking for Drakk on the Erlin5 into Atlanta durring the middle of the day when they know all we can give are BNA or BWG. Also memphis arrivals constantly ask for LTOWN or WLDER when the best we can give is SPKER. Do we as controllers expect you to know all this? No, but if you fly the same arrivals every day into the same major airports, ask and remember what you can get. I know everytime I fly, I try to talk to flight crews that go through my area alot and give them tips on what we can and cannot give.
4. In slowing an aircraft down to let another aircraft in front...... To do this soley by company would be somewhat impossible, if not dangerous. My sectors constantly average 8-12 aircraft at a time with 20-25 durring peak times. To keep from falling behind, a good controller can only do two things to sequence aircraft: the faster guy stays in front or the closer guy is in front. Meaning in a distance tie the faster guy is definitely going first. In a speed tie, the closest is going first. Speeds, vectors, and shortcuts are given in respect. Now there are more factors we could spend all day talking about, but that is the simplest way to figure it out. Also the closer you get to the airport the more distance plays a factor and the more likely you are slowed down. If you rearrainge the sequence any other way your going down the craphole faster than Alice went through the rabbit hole. The only way you would risk that is if there is a priority(i.e. emergency, lifegaurd, possibly min fuel, etc). Nowhere in the 7110.65 or any other regulating document have I seen Southwest listed as a priority, therefore I don't know a single controller who would risk his career for southwest.
Last, I would like to invite any U.S. citizen to come take a tour of our facilities(U.S. citzenship is a required by the facilities). Find a controller or get a phone number and ask. The worst anyone will ever say is no. If you want a tour of Indy center, shoot me a PM and I'll do what I can to get it set up for you.
Hopefully this gives a controller's perspective on the issue.
Facts-
1. Southwest almost always flies at or very close to their maximum forward airspeeds. They rarely pull back to conserve fuel. They don't pull back in the climb/descent unless asked to. This usually makes them faster. Faster plane in front gets there quicker.
2. They ask for shortcuts more than any other pilot group. The more you ask for a shortcut the more you get them(unless you pester, basically ask for it once per frequency change, eventually you'll find out who can authorize it).
3. They rarely ask for impossible short cuts(i.e. direct MDW when landing at MDW). They fly into Midway all the time and seem to remember on the Fissk 1 arrival they are only going to get Kokomo. So what do they ask for? Kokomo. Ask for Veeck especially durring a push and there is an answer I can definitely tell you that you will get: UNABLE. Depending on the controller you get and their workload, they may take the time and give you kokomo, but that depends on the controller. I can't tell you how many times I get pilots asking for Drakk on the Erlin5 into Atlanta durring the middle of the day when they know all we can give are BNA or BWG. Also memphis arrivals constantly ask for LTOWN or WLDER when the best we can give is SPKER. Do we as controllers expect you to know all this? No, but if you fly the same arrivals every day into the same major airports, ask and remember what you can get. I know everytime I fly, I try to talk to flight crews that go through my area alot and give them tips on what we can and cannot give.
4. In slowing an aircraft down to let another aircraft in front...... To do this soley by company would be somewhat impossible, if not dangerous. My sectors constantly average 8-12 aircraft at a time with 20-25 durring peak times. To keep from falling behind, a good controller can only do two things to sequence aircraft: the faster guy stays in front or the closer guy is in front. Meaning in a distance tie the faster guy is definitely going first. In a speed tie, the closest is going first. Speeds, vectors, and shortcuts are given in respect. Now there are more factors we could spend all day talking about, but that is the simplest way to figure it out. Also the closer you get to the airport the more distance plays a factor and the more likely you are slowed down. If you rearrainge the sequence any other way your going down the craphole faster than Alice went through the rabbit hole. The only way you would risk that is if there is a priority(i.e. emergency, lifegaurd, possibly min fuel, etc). Nowhere in the 7110.65 or any other regulating document have I seen Southwest listed as a priority, therefore I don't know a single controller who would risk his career for southwest.
Last, I would like to invite any U.S. citizen to come take a tour of our facilities(U.S. citzenship is a required by the facilities). Find a controller or get a phone number and ask. The worst anyone will ever say is no. If you want a tour of Indy center, shoot me a PM and I'll do what I can to get it set up for you.
Hopefully this gives a controller's perspective on the issue.
TFaudree_ERAU
Mashin' dem buttons
Flying the Cirrus, I got preference in ORF the other day over a PDT Dash 8 that was overtaking me on the downwind. Know why? Cause the controllers know me and know that I'll do whatever the hell they want me to, short of jeopardizing safety. I'll chop and drop from 5000' on a midfield downwind. I'll do 140 to a one mile final to keep things moving on final. I'll do 90 from five miles out so they can get a bank of departures out.
You do these things on a daily basis, and controllers remember you and try to help you out as much as possible. A deli tray up to the tower doesn't hurt either. Good on SWA for buying pizza at SEA and PDX. Its called customer relations; more airlines should try it.
We had to go around one day in the Lear at ORF because some RJ crew took 2 minutes to get on the runway and get rolling. They were cleared for takeoff when we were still 4 miles out, and they FINALLY started rolling when we were on a 1/4 mile final. Its incompetence like that that makes controllers not want to help you out.
You do these things on a daily basis, and controllers remember you and try to help you out as much as possible. A deli tray up to the tower doesn't hurt either. Good on SWA for buying pizza at SEA and PDX. Its called customer relations; more airlines should try it.
We had to go around one day in the Lear at ORF because some RJ crew took 2 minutes to get on the runway and get rolling. They were cleared for takeoff when we were still 4 miles out, and they FINALLY started rolling when we were on a 1/4 mile final. Its incompetence like that that makes controllers not want to help you out.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Hell, I'm happy for BWG or BNA. Besides, isn't SPKER only a few miles from LTOWN anyway?
As for SWA, they get about as much special treatment (in my experience) as FedEx, NWA, Delta, Pinnacle, etc. I have yet to first hand see any kind of special treatment. I HEAR a lot about it, but never seen it myself. I also HEAR we're close to a pilot contract, but I've been hearing that for over 3 years now.
