So I flew a Pilatus today...

Also, when people say, 'Don't log it if you don't know systems', is also fairly annoying.

Say you fly smaller SE Cessnas and then rent Pipers for a bit. Would you not log that time because you didn't know exactly how a fuel system worked with a fuel pump, or the whole electrical schematic with different busses?

No you would still log it as 5 or 10 hours that you flew it while you rented it.
 
I hate regs. This is the gray area...ARE YOU THE PIC, ARE YOU ACTING AS PIC...none sense. I wonder how the other pilot logged it. Now, from my point of view, you can just log it as a scenic ride as pax...

That's just my interpretation. when its gray i rather take white or black.
It's better to have a couple of hours less on your logs than have a future employer ask you questions about how and why you logged X time.

A little bit off the subject but this is just as a friend attending a school in FL does...he goes out on X-country with a buddy and both log pic because one was flying the other was on the radio blah blah blah.....the best of all is that the school encourages them totake the flights and stuff....Buddy Flights or something......oh my!

Take care



TI
 
I'm with the log it as PIC crowd per 61.51. Accordingly, the acting PIC should NOT have logged it since he wasn't the sole manipulator of the controls (but he probably did anyway).

The regs are full of gray area. I even stump the FSDO from time to time when I need clarification.
 
I'm agree log it as PIC. There is definately not a legal issue there. If someone hiring you doesn't wan't to count your 2 hours (or whatever it was ) of PC 12 time then I guess you have to suffer that:sarcasm:.

On a side note, I saw a log book a couple days ago from one of my students that had a "PIC as sole manipulator" column and an "acting PIC" column. I thought that was interesting. It was even preprinted in there.

...and props (no pun intended) on the Pilatus time. I don't know why, but I love that plane (haven't flown one yet)
 
What about logging complex time? I did not have my complex endorsement while being the sole manipulator of a C172RG during some of my instrument training (the regular 172 was on mechanical so we took the RG). I logged it as PIC/complex time and during my commercial training my instructor told me its not PIC until you have your endorsement. Anythoughts?
 
jamin35008 said:
What about logging complex time? I did not have my complex endorsement while being the sole manipulator of a C172RG during some of my instrument training (the regular 172 was on mechanical so we took the RG). I logged it as PIC/complex time and during my commercial training my instructor told me its not PIC until you have your endorsement. Anythoughts?
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Here:

This should be easy enough, 61.51 (E)(1)(i): Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges

Part 1, page 9 definitions:

Rating means a statement that, as a part of a certificate, sets forth special conditions, priveleges, or limitations.



Then refer them to chapter 1 of the Jeppesen Private Pilot book and let them read what in fact are ratings, they are all listed in chapter 1. Next jump on to 61.31 (e), (f), (g), and (i) noting for each of these the word endorsement is located in the regulation (it is located in the last paragraph of each reg). You can log PIC because you are rated to fly airplane, single engine land. You just don't have your endorsement required to operate as PIC per 61.57 meaning you cannot be the sole manipulator or the only rated pilot on board acting PIC. This doesn't prohibet you from logging PIC as per the above FAR since you are rated for that single engine land aircraft. In short, as long as you are rated for that aircraft you can fly it.

For comparisson sake if it is argued that gliders are under this same section. Reference 61.31 (j)(1)(iii)(2): "The holder of a glider rating..."

This one is a pretty clean cut one if you ask me, it just requires a little extra research. Good luck maybe your buddies will believe the federal government (careful don't be too trusting!).
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This is something I wrote in another post and should answer that question.
 
29.92inHg said:
...and props (no pun intended) on the Pilatus time. I don't know why, but I love that plane (haven't flown one yet)
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It's an incredible plane. I think it's impossible to make a botched landing in it with the 16 inches of travel on the trailing linkage gear. Even my first one was a greaser (it should've smacked down lol). Lots of power, obviously compared to my measely c-172, and very terriffic performance. I was wondering why the PIC kept putting it on autopilot so soon and when it was my turn to fly, I had to hand-fly it... I know why he uses autopilot lol. That thing is very heavy and its difficult to control all that power (again, I'm coming from my 150hp c-172) without overcorrecting on pitch and/or power use. I loved it and really would like to go up again in it.
 
c172captain said:
It's an incredible plane. I think it's impossible to make a botched landing in it with the 16 inches of travel on the trailing linkage gear. Even my first one was a greaser (it should've smacked down lol). Lots of power, obviously compared to my measely c-172, and very terriffic performance. I was wondering why the PIC kept putting it on autopilot so soon and when it was my turn to fly, I had to hand-fly it... I know why he uses autopilot lol. That thing is very heavy and its difficult to control all that power (again, I'm coming from my 150hp c-172) without overcorrecting on pitch and/or power use. I loved it and really would like to go up again in it.
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Just have to set the power to the perscribed for the phase of flight you are in. I was told to leave it be when I flew in it, he said there was no point it flew clean and smooth. He took off, I climbed up leveled 2500 for maybe 5-10 min then descent and land he made 4 power changes: takeoff power, cruise power, approach, and finally to idle during the landing. The thing I remembered was trim, it is a heavy plane, and our systems teacher said "in little planes the elevator can overpower the trim, in larger aircraft the trim system often drastically overpowers the elevator." Once I figured out how to trim it was a walk in the park.

Wonderful aircraft though.
 
c172captain said:
and I was wondering how I'm supposed to log this. I wasn't PIC (I'm not trying to log it as such, either) nor was I a required crewmember (which would disqualify me from logging SIC) and the other pilot, who was the PIC for the entirety of the flight, was not an instructor (so it wasn't dual received). I was sole manipulator of the controls, if that helps. Another instructor told me to just log it in my logbook and basically leave the three types of piloting time empty, those three mentioned above, and just fill in the total time box. Can I do this? Is there a better way of doing it? If I can't/shouldn't log this as any flight time, I'll more than likely simply put the date in the logbook and leave everything empty (hours and all) and just fill in what happened in the remarks section so that I can reminisce.

Thanks
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WHAT!!!! WHERE WAS I AT!!!! You lucky dog.
 
moxiepilot said:
61.31 - has to do with the service ceiling, not the actual altitude flown at.

(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL), unless that person has received and logged ground training from an authorized instructor and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who certifies the person has satisfactorily accomplished the ground training. The ground training must include at least the following subjects:
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By the fact of the matter of regulations, you can log PIC. Is it smart to? No!
Why? If your lookin to get hired, the employer will look at that time "O so you've flown a Pilatus, but... i didnt see your high altitude endorsement." "Well i was the sole manipulator of the controls so i logged it." Techniqually you are allowed to do this, but from an employer's point of view, they will discard that time because you are not appropriately rated for that aircraft.
I would personally take it as an experience and use it for your future training.

As for Jamin, I would have logged it as dual received, no PIC. Again your not technically rated in the aircraft and it was a 1 time deal for training purposes.
 
Its your logbook, log you what you want.. But come on, seriously "c172 captain", what do you really know about the pilatus systems ?? Your an instructor but were you instructing or was someone telling you what to do the whole time? If there was some kind of emergency would you still be PIC or would you yell "your controls!".

If I were reviewing your logbook and I saw pilatus PIC time I'd be sure to ask you a couple questions about the systems (especially if you don't have any other pilatus time or any comparable high performance/high altitude aircraft time). If you didn't know anything it would definitely raise an eyebrow. You are what the industry calls a "gear-up, sonny". Basicly you sit right seat (maybe for insurance reasons) and the captain/PIC tells you "gear up" and thats about the extent of your responsibilities.

You had a fun flight in a pilatus. Log it as such...
 
SoCalFlyer2 said:
If I were reviewing your logbook and I saw pilatus PIC time I'd be sure to ask you a couple questions about the systems
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And if he gave you an answer would you know if he was right or not?
Maybe at one time he knew everything there was to know about a Pilatus but say its been 5 years, should he still remember everything. I flew a Caravan for 18 months and I can't remember a thing about it. Does that mean I wouldn't get the job if you asked me about it.
 
BajtheJino said:
And if he gave you an answer would you know if he was right or not?
Maybe at one time he knew everything there was to know about a Pilatus but say its been 5 years, should he still remember everything. I flew a Caravan for 18 months and I can't remember a thing about it. Does that mean I wouldn't get the job if you asked me about it.
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Well, you obviously wouldn't get the job :buck:
 
Well I guess I'll throw my .02 in here.

When I started my transition to the PC-12, I did not log any PIC until I had completed my High Altitude training and had said endorsement. I had the same questions and my answer that I came up with was not logging that time as PIC I will never be questioned on the validity of that time.

At the same time ask yourself if you would have been legal to take that aircraft up solo. If so log PIC

Not to pick on anyone, but it's kinda silly to fret over a couple of hours one way or the other.
 
I would not log PIC time. Without a high altitude endorsement (assuming the Pilatus is certified above 25,000 ft, then you do not have the privileges to fly a pilatus, and since the regs call for a PIC to have privileges in the aircraft being flown, although you may be rated in ASEL, I would not log this as PIC.


14 CFR 61.51



(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
 
To answer the question: PIC

tangoindia said:
I hate regs. This is the gray area...
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There's no gray area at all. He was sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft for which he is rated (Airplane Single Engine Land). Case closed.

He only needs the high altitude, high performance and complex endorsements to act as pilot in command. Not to log pilot in command flight time as allowed in 61.51.

CFI-wanna-fly: You missed the word "or" in there. It's crucial. Like, when you get an authorization to fly an aircraft from the feds that you may not be rated (category, class and/or type) in. You'd have privileges in it at that point....or you could be rated in it (category, class and/or type). That's a pretty crucial conjunction.

-mini
 
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