slowing without advising

MarkZ said:
Sometimes a few pilots ask on frequency why I (and many other of my colleagues) assign 250 knots when we issue a descent below 10K. This thread is exactly why. Far too many pilots slow on their own. Heck, I still have at least one pilot a week who will slow on his/her own after being assigned 250 knots. No weather/turbulence/icing.

That one boggles me.


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I'll routinely do 250 kts until I'm getting vectored for approach, which is usually 10-12 miles; then I'll start to slow to 200. What I don't get is when controllers assign 220+ and keep us high and then expect us to be configured at the final. Maybe the airliners can do this, but the Lear sure has a hard time slowing down even with power chopped.
 
Erik10 said:
I'll routinely do 250 kts until I'm getting vectored for approach, which is usually 10-12 miles; then I'll start to slow to 200. What I don't get is when controllers assign 220+ and keep us high and then expect us to be configured at the final. Maybe the airliners can do this, but the Lear sure has a hard time slowing down even with power chopped.
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Are you being vectored a visual approach?


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FYI it happens on our side too. Just followed a company plane that was going 220KIAS 30+ miles away from the airport. We couldn't figure out why in the world they were going that slow that far out!
 
Erik10 said:
Some days, yes, some days, no.
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It makes a difference.

On an instrument approach, we are required to have you intercept the final approach course below the glideslope. If one doesn't exist, then we must allow for safe descent on the approach.

It would appear you suggest some places don't do that, which would be a different issue than we are discussing.


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MarkZ said:
It makes a difference.

On an instrument approach, we are required to have you intercept the final approach course below the glideslope. If one doesn't exist, then we must allow for safe descent on the approach.

It would appear you suggest some places don't do that, which would be a different issue than we are discussing.


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I may of not described the approach clearly. We are always intercepting the GS prior to the final, however, we're not at out flap or gear speed. So, you can see where it can become unstabalized quickly. So, we're descending on the GS, but we're still too fast to configure. I usually end up dumping everything at once which is not usually enjoyable for the folks in the back.
 
how bout this...when coming into ATL. Slow when you're told, don't slow any earlier or you'll get another jet up your *** ..... Goes for anywhere actually as you're not the only one in the sky

OK to post MikeD?
 
T/O w/FSII said:
200kts below the Class B is a big reason for guys going into nearby airports. Cant forget that little rule
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I get that one a lot. "Keep your speed up", "Roger, slowing to 200kts for airspace". I try to do a good job of advising that's what I'm doing if I was previously assigned a speed and can no longer maintain it because of the airspace. I do know there are a lot of guys out there that just blatantly ignore this and keep blasting away at 250 though, so I can understand why there is confusion and mis-communication.

A80TRACON said:
how bout this...when coming into ATL. Slow when you're told, don't slow any earlier or you'll get another jet up your *** ..... Goes for anywhere actually as you're not the only one in the sky

OK to post MikeD?
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Was I assigned a speed? If so, I will comply to the best of my aircraft's ability and if I can't, will do my best to advise if I can get a word in edgewise. If I wasn't assigned one, personally, I know the drill, I try to keep some type of SA about me that helps me know where I am in the conga line or just what number I am to the field (though I don't try to read your mind/do your job by making things up like some pilots like to do) and keep my speed up accordingly, HOWEVER, in the absence of an assigned speed, I will slow the airplane according to its profile, modified for how high/fast I was left (looking at you, Chicago Center). If I'm the least bit above the profile near the ground, it's a less than perfect experience trying to get the airplane down and it requires slowing, configuring, then descending or I will never be able to make it a stabilized approach.

Bottom line, IMHO, communication is key. If you need something, ask, and I will do the same. If it's a busy frequency, let me know sooner rather than later and I will do my best to let you know sooner rather than later if it's going to work out for me. We're all just trying to make it home safe at the end of the day.
 
I have a follow up question to this thread...

There are several RNAV arrivals that have you slow to 250 kts at some point and then do not have any other published speed reductions, putting you on a downwind at 250 kts. Then you you get a turn onto base pointing you just outside the final approach fix which in my aircraft is kinda late to start slowing down especially if you are kept high. On base leg you're often asked if you can see the runway and subsequently cleared for the visual.

I have always treated the 250 kts from the arrival as an "assigned speed". Without any additional speed reductions given by ATC, my thought was I need to maintain that speed until given a new speed or an approach clearance.

Usually if it's not busy a quick query to the controller solves the problem but today the final controller was busy and I was not expecting the quick turn onto base and couldn't get a word in edge ways to ask.

I've looked the AIM and a few other sources but can't find a definitive answer. Are you controllers aware of any guidance on this? What are your expectations on speed control in a situation like this?
 
xdashdriver said:
I have a follow up question to this thread...

There are several RNAV arrivals that have you slow to 250 kts at some point and then do not have any other published speed reductions, putting you on a downwind at 250 kts. Then you you get a turn onto base pointing you just outside the final approach fix which in my aircraft is kinda late to start slowing down especially if you are kept high. On base leg you're often asked if you can see the runway and subsequently cleared for the visual.

I have always treated the 250 kts from the arrival as an "assigned speed". Without any additional speed reductions given by ATC, my thought was I need to maintain that speed until given a new speed or an approach clearance.

Usually if it's not busy a quick query to the controller solves the problem but today the final controller was busy and I was not expecting the quick turn onto base and couldn't get a word in edge ways to ask.

I've looked the AIM and a few other sources but can't find a definitive answer. Are you controllers aware of any guidance on this? What are your expectations on speed control in a situation like this?
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In a situation like this, notably ATL, JFK, LGA, LAX I've always maintained the 250kts. Approach Control will slow you at the appropriate time to sequence you on to final. Slow early and you get yelled at. Especially in NYC Tracon.
 
Cptnchia said:
In a situation like this, notably ATL, JFK, LGA, LAX I've always maintained the 250kts. Approach Control will slow you at the appropriate time to sequence you on to final. Slow early and you get yelled at. Especially in NYC Tracon.
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Yes, don't slow until we tell you to, and trust us.....you will be slowed down in time.
 
N90-EWR said:
Yes, don't slow until we tell you to, and trust us.....you will be slowed down in time.
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... or we won't ;)

In the case of SFO at least, I know you'll want 180 to the bridge so that's what I do if not told otherwise at the appropriate time.

It's cool, I know you're busy.


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N90-EWR said:
Yes, don't slow until we tell you to, and trust us.....you will be slowed down in time.
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That's the problem. I trusted, kept the speed up and ended up having to go around because I was kept way too high and fast. 3,000 AGL on 4nm final doesn't cut it.
 
Pilots here asking constantly for slower/lower, so I guess they just find the frequency time and make their request.
 
mikecweb said:
Is notated on the STAR or just tribal knowledge and mind reading?
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I've noticed that the US and the controllers are a big fan of mind reading.
Other places just put it on the star. 180 until 10, 160 until 5.
Not even that much text.
 
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